I think I need go into great detail why tanks have bad game design

[shao32]

But is the right direction to make Dark Knight more complicated in order to separate it from Warrior?

And is Dark Knight the class that needs changes or is it Warrior? Or is it both? Are these issues exclusive to Dark Knight or do they apply to the tank role as a whole?

DRK use to be a complety diferent job before SHB, WAR and DRK was like night and day, so the short answer is yes DRK is the one that needs to be changed since is DRK the one that has copy and paste literally the core gameplay of WAR in SHB and turn it on what it is right now a WAR clone with a small oGCD window and WAR did have this design since SB years before SHB.

DRK use to be with WAR the most complex tanks with PLD being the most simple one, totally diferent in dps gameplay, considering this was taken from those who loved DRK before SHB for years i would say yes it's have to be, it's nothing personal against your opinion about current DRK im glad you enjoy it but the current desing represent a problem that not only affect DRK but WAR too and was DRK the one that has been mutilated to become what is right now so it's pretty logic some ppl like me want it back as a unique job again specially if resemble how it was before SHB madness.

[Lyth]

DRK has much more in common with MCH gameplay than it does WAR.

[Kalaam]

DRK has much more in common with MCH gameplay than it does WAR.

How can you say something so controversial, yet so true ?

[shao32]

Well it's obvious the designer who made the WAR rework in 4.2 is the same person who did the carnage of DRK and MCH, that man have an absurd obsesión with spam the same skill 5 times in a row for some reason and make everything work around that or have nothing at all.

[Sooru]

DRK use to be a complety diferent job before SHB, WAR and DRK was like night and day, so the short answer is yes DRK is the one that needs to be changed since is DRK the one that has copy and paste literally the core gameplay of WAR in SHB and turn it on what it is right now a WAR clone with a small oGCD window and WAR did have this design since SB years before SHB.

DRK use to be with WAR the most complex tanks with PLD being the most simple one, totally diferent in dps gameplay, considering this was taken for those who loved DRK before SHB for years i would say yes it's have to be, it's nothing personal against your opinion about current DRK im glad you enjoy it but the current desing represent a problem that not only affect DRK but WAR too and was DRK the one that has been mutilated to become what is right now so it's pretty logic some ppl like me want it back as a unique job again specially if resemble how it was before SHB madness.

To be fair, the 2 jobs I've played the most so far (Monk and Dark Knight) both have abilities that create a repetitive spam pattern (Monk's Perfect Balance makes it spam Dragon Kick and Bootshine, and Dark Knight's Delirium makes it spam Bloodspiller). That part I can agree is boring and serves no real purpose. I've proposed some changes in another thread and now I'm curious as to what else could be changed about Delirium and/or Dark Knight as a whole to make the job more interesting.

[Bhearil]

Monk is getting a well deserved rework on Endwalker after several expansions of being the most forgotten job (right now is the least dps job played because its a complete disaster and kept messing it even more with each expansion), lets cross our fingers they dont screw it up again

SE said that War was the ideal of tanking they aspired, but that was when the other tanks had serious shortcomings

Pld had the lowest damage, was useless against magic and great against physical which make the job struggle a lot during Heavensward because War and Drk were far better
Drk had good consistent damage, was great as a main tank, but nos so good as an offtank, great against magic and average against physical, but they apeared during a magic damage raid meta so they were godly during Heavensward
War had the best damage in huge bursts (during those windows they hit harder than many damage jobs), good at main tank and offtank and good defence against magic and physical with the best "dont die" skill since the cd was really low compared to the others.

Thats a very simplificated version there were many other things as well and even War got neutered a lot since that statement

[Kolsykol]

Rly unpopular opinion I think, but I actually miss Dark Arts spam for DRK.
I think it'd be really cool if it was how you used Bloodspiller, if it powered up your attack and turned Souleater into Bloodspiller or something.
I remember people complaining a lot about it back in Heavensward tho but I thought it was cool.

I also miss Scourge.

Well it's obvious the designer who made the WAR rework in 4.2 is the same person who did the carnage of DRK and MCH, that man have an absurd obsesión with spam the same skill 5 times in a row for some reason and make everything work around that or have nothing at all.

There's a fairly vocal group of people who want to turn combos into just one button too like in PvP.
Just spamming one button isn't fun.

[KatsuraJun]

Rly unpopular opinion I think, but I actually miss Dark Arts spam for DRK.

you're not the only one, because people dumbing the conversation about it down to spam was and is disingenuous. it played into DRK's fast paced resource management game and rewarded planning ahead.

people relentlessly memeing about DA is exactly why DRK is the way it is now - garbage.

[Kolsykol]

you're not the only one, because people dumbing the conversation about it down to spam was and is disingenuous. it played into DRK's fast paced resource management game and rewarded planning ahead.

Maybe spam was a poor choice of words, I remember people complaining about it tho but you're right that it wasn't really spam.
By that same token Edge of Shadow would be spam too but you go dry really fast if you spam it.
I think there's an argument to be made that it didn't feel impactful enough, I kinda feel that way about Forbidden Chakra on MNK too.
If I am unlocking Chakras to charge up this supposedly rly epic ability then it kinda feels underwhelming when it doesn't even hit that hard.
Or uh, Leaden Fist...
Seriously, our level 1 ability is our big hitter just wtf.
Leaden Fist doesn't even change the animation or anything it's really underwhelming and doesn't feel powerful enough imo.

This is why I think Souleater being upgraded to Bloodspiller for example with Dark Arts would be really cool, because you'd feel and see that.
And even if the potency is good I think that actually seeing it is important too.

[KatsuraJun]

Maybe spam was a poor choice of words, I remember people complaining about it tho but you're right that it wasn't really spam.
By that same token Edge of Shadow would be spam too but you go dry really fast if you spam it.
I think there's an argument to be made that it didn't feel impactful enough, I kinda feel that way about Forbidden Chakra on MNK too.
If I am unlocking Chakras to charge up this supposedly rly epic ability then it kinda feels underwhelming when it doesn't even hit that hard.

This is why I think Souleater being upgraded to Bloodspiller for example with Dark Arts would be really cool, because you'd feel and see that.
And even if the potency is good I think that actually seeing it is important too.

I can agree with something like a visual change once you use DA to upgrade abilities, because that's something that felt slightly underwhelming about DA from the very start in 2.0 - by SB I was already used to it at that point tbh. but if we got something like Dark Mind upgraded to a cooler animation, Souleater upgraded to Bloodspiller, etc. yeah that'd be pretty cool. but those are just visual aspects, when the thing that really made me quit drk and barely raid in 5.x is the gameplay. honest to god I was perfectly fine with the way it was in SB. in the interest of speed, i'll summarize what I said about 4.x DRK in the megathread:

-TBN: wants you to have less than 50 blood so you don't cap, but enough MP to cast
-Delirium: wants you to have 50 or more blood, but almost no MP so you don't cap

this dichotomy, along with random skills like CnS costing MP and DA Dark Mind, or Salted Earth generating Blood back then is what formed the core idea of DRK in SB. you had to balance these two resources out properly, and DA was the glue that tied it all together. it let you control how much MP you wanted to dump in preparation for your upcoming CDs or mechanics that might have demanded your shield.

use too little DA and you'll be mashing DA every ogcd window during delirium and still cap on MP, while pushing back all your other ogcds that may be going off cooldown. in a way, SB DRK turned even the ogcd window into a resource.
use too much DA and you won't have MP for TBN, CnS, Dark Mind, etc when you need it.

but now we have a job that has literally all of that stripped away. i don't think it's an accident that even TBN no longer gives blood, and instead a free cast of edge/flood. it was an intentional attempt to make it simpler so you don't have to really think about it.