Samurai have positionals?!

[Kolsykol]

If people are struggling with their rotations then they shouldn't even be talking about this to begin with, and the numerical difference will be significantly magnified.
Back to the dummy and practice it.

And no one is saying to miss gcds for positionals I said the exact opposite.
Keeping your gcd rolling is like prio number one, that doesn't mean that everything else isn't important.

And yes crits make a huge difference but those crits would still be higher with positionals not to mention that you may actually be losing out on critical Shintens and that will only be magnified even further with gear.
Again it's just a bunch of excuses and strawman arguments, no one here is saying that you should be prioritizing positionals above surviving or your gcd.
What we're talking about here is people intentionally ignoring positionals don't try and shift the conversation.

[Nothv13]

If you're taking more than one step to switch positions, you're doing positionals wrong. Executed properly, changing positionals will never take more than half a second. The GCD is between 4 and 5 times this, depending on your job and speed rating. Positonals are not a significant burden to warrant ignoring because "trying will just make you worse".

Again, yes trying will make some worse because they do not know the fights, they tank is moving the boss a lot, someone else died meaning the mechanics shift. Unless you got your rotation and fight on lock, trying to go for positionals can very well make you lose dps. Positionals are the smallest factor of your dps and absolutely last thing you should be paying attention to.

If people are struggling with their rotations then they shouldn't even be talking about this to begin with, and the numerical difference will be significantly magnified.
Back to the dummy and practice it.

And no one is saying to miss gcds for positionals I said the exact opposite.
Keeping your gcd rolling is like prio number one, that doesn't mean that everything else isn't important.

And yes crits make a huge difference but those crits would still be higher with positionals not to mention that you may actually be losing out on critical Shintens and that will only be magnified even further with gear.
Again it's just a bunch of excuses and strawman arguments, no one here is saying that you should be prioritizing positionals above surviving or your gcd.
What we're talking about here is people intentionally ignoring positionals don't try and shift the conversation.

I'm seeing people saying if you don't hit positionals then you suck and are losing a ton of damage which is largely untrue. Its the exact same mindset that leads the extreme toxic behaviors we see in other games, that peopel claim FFXIV avoids. That is what I get from this, despite that a person not trying to hit positionals could out dps a person trying to hit positions just out of luck on number of crits.

The 1% or so difference in damage takes into account the crit positionals. I'm not saying positionals do not matter to damage at all. I'm saying they only matter when trying to get the highest possible parse which is only a fraction of a fraction of the player base and that the vast vast majority will never be in a position where such matters, even if they are trying to be. Much much more important things to focus on to improve your play before even thinking about positionals except for on monk because pretty much all their GCDs are psoitionals.

[ssunny2008]

Again, yes trying will make some worse because they do not know the fights, they tank is moving the boss a lot, someone else died meaning the mechanics shift. Unless you got your rotation and fight on lock, trying to go for positionals can very well make you lose dps. Positionals are the smallest factor of your dps and absolutely last thing you should be paying attention to.

I'm seeing people saying if you don't hit positionals then you suck and are losing a ton of damage which is largely untrue. Its the exact same mindset that leads the extreme toxic behaviors we see in other games, that peopel claim FFXIV avoids. That is what I get from this, despite that a person not trying to hit positionals could out dps a person trying to hit positions just out of luck on number of crits.

The 1% or so difference in damage takes into account the crit positionals. I'm not saying positionals do not matter to damage at all. I'm saying they only matter when trying to get the highest possible parse which is only a fraction of a fraction of the player base and that the vast vast majority will never be in a position where such matters, even if they are trying to be. Much much more important things to focus on to improve your play before even thinking about positionals except for on monk because pretty much all their GCDs are psoitionals.

Positionals are always a gain, in case of MNK even way more than 1%. DRG won´t get his buffed attack without them, SAM either lose Kaiten or Shinten. NIN is pretty much the only class who can stay behind the boss 90% of the fight.

And yes, you do suck if you ignore to play positionals on purpose. It´s not a toxic mindset, it´s nothing but the truth. If you don´t give your best, you hinder the whole group. And as a DPS class you should use whatever is possible to increase your damage. Any little percentage can make the difference in content which aren´t braindead dungeons. I´ve seen more than once groups wiping to the enrage at 1% or even 0,1% in savage.
This casual mindset "don´t care about it" is a joke and if you´re not able to play 123, 145, 16 as SAM, you should go practice or change the class. Nothing is more braindead than those 123 combos with 60s buffs. Imo such mindsets are the reason, why the game is getting easier and classes get way too much dumbdowns.
I don´t know why ppl still play games, when all they want is free loot by spamming 1 button.

[Nothv13]

Positionals are always a gain, in case of MNK even way more than 1%. DRG won´t get his buffed attack without them, SAM either lose Kaiten or Shinten. NIN is pretty much the only class who can stay behind the boss 90% of the fight.

And yes, you do suck if you ignore to play positionals on purpose. It´s not a toxic mindset, it´s nothing but the truth. If you don´t give your best, you hinder the whole group. And as a DPS class you should use whatever is possible to increase your damage. Any little percentage can make the difference in content which aren´t braindead dungeons. I´ve seen more than once groups wiping to the enrage at 1% or even 0,1% in savage.
This casual mindset "don´t care about it" is a joke and if you´re not able to play 123, 145, 16 as SAM, you should go practice or change the class. Nothing is more braindead than those 123 combos with 60s buffs. Imo such mindsets are the reason, why the game is getting easier and classes get way too much dumbdowns.
I don´t know why ppl still play games, when all they want is free loot by spamming 1 button.

MNK is the only one consistently more than 1% and that is because all its GCDs have positionals. DRG, you'll hit 50% of those extra attacks just sitting only on the back or side as you only have to hit the last positional before you cycle back to the beginning of the combo to trigger the new attack. You'll hit even more just sitting on the seem between the front and back

I've seen wipes that close too. It wasn't the positionals that changed it though. It was less people dieing, one person getting a more crisp rotation, one less person out of position, one less time the tank moved the boss slightly wrong. Absolutely the last thing you should worry about is the positionals on all but MNK. Not once have I ever heard any any stream I've seen progressing content, that it is positional that make the difference.

[Rilifane]

MNK is the only one consistently more than 1% and that is because all its GCDs have positionals. DRG, you'll hit 50% of those extra attacks just sitting only on the back or side as you only have to hit the last positional before you cycle back to the beginning of the combo to trigger the new attack. You'll hit even more just sitting on the seem between the front and back

I've seen wipes that close too. It wasn't the positionals that changed it though. It was less people dieing, one person getting a more crisp rotation, one less person out of position, one less time the tank moved the boss slightly wrong. Absolutely the last thing you should worry about is the positionals on all but MNK. Not once have I ever heard any any stream I've seen progressing content, that it is positional that make the difference.

A wipe is caused by too many mistakes spread across multiple people. Just because that guy over there lost more dps from not doing something than you did by deliberately ignoring positionals doesn't mean ignoring positionals is okay or should be encouraged.
Everything makes a difference and it all adds up. I've seen kills where the enrage animation went out and people already started dying. A DRG not hitting positionals, a BLM refreshing Eno early a few times, a DNC overwriting a few procs, a NIN missing a Raiton in their TA are all minor mistakes that are all things that could've made the difference between kill or no kill.
Mistakes will inevitably happen because we're human but there is a difference between "I try but shit happens" and deliberately not doing something that is free damage.
Instead of saying "someone else could've done better and it would've been a kill", conveniently trying shifting the blame, people should play as best as they can and focus on doing their own thing well. That includes playing positionals whenever safely possible.

Yes, someone could've just stayed alive. Yes, the boss could've been positioned better.
Doesn't excuse deliberately not putting forth effort for things that don't require much effort to begin with. This is not even min-maxing level we're talking about. It's a basic mechanic for all melees.
Even if something like ignoring positionals is minor compared to dying, I find the mindset of "Why should I bother?" much worse than someone dying to a mechanic. They are generally willing to learn and do better next time. I'd rather take that than this mindset.

If someone lacks practice on a class, by all means, please ignore positionals for now and focus on the basic rotation. If someone is unsure if they can safely play them, they should simply miss it and move on with their life. If they tried and the boss happened to turn, well... shit happens. They tried.
That's all fine.
Encouraging people to always ignore them is not. Let them learn instead of dragging them down.

[dangadget]

Again, yes trying will make some worse because they do not know the fights, they tank is moving the boss a lot, someone else died meaning the mechanics shift. Unless you got your rotation and fight on lock, trying to go for positionals can very well make you lose dps. Positionals are the smallest factor of your dps and absolutely last thing you should be paying attention to.



I'm seeing people saying if you don't hit positionals then you suck and are losing a ton of damage which is largely untrue. Its the exact same mindset that leads the extreme toxic behaviors we see in other games, that peopel claim FFXIV avoids. That is what I get from this, despite that a person not trying to hit positionals could out dps a person trying to hit positions just out of luck on number of crits.

The 1% or so difference in damage takes into account the crit positionals. I'm not saying positionals do not matter to damage at all. I'm saying they only matter when trying to get the highest possible parse which is only a fraction of a fraction of the player base and that the vast vast majority will never be in a position where such matters, even if they are trying to be. Much much more important things to focus on to improve your play before even thinking about positionals except for on monk because pretty much all their GCDs are psoitionals.

I get it, I've seen it.
Got a FC mate who focuses on hitting those positionals.
So
Damn
Hard

Yet they miss mechanics and uptime, and struggle with using AoEs where appropriate.
I've tried to tell them the same thing; that they should focus on those other things first, and then work their way up to getting positionals consistently, but they're not having it

[ItMe]

I get it, I've seen it.
Got a FC mate who focuses on hitting those positionals.
So
Damn
Hard

Yet they miss mechanics and uptime, and struggle with using AoEs where appropriate.
I've tried to tell them the same thing; that they should focus on those other things first, and then work their way up to getting positionals consistently, but they're not having it

That's the way baby~
Focus on the big details, but once you're ready to address the finer details don't neglect the small stuff.
Heck, while learning and getting used to a fight its OK to stop pushing buttons all together if you need to focus on learning mechanics. Everything doesn't need to happen all at once.

[ssunny2008]

That's the way baby~
Focus on the big details, but once you're ready to address the finer details don't neglect the small stuff.
Heck, while learning and getting used to a fight its OK to stop pushing buttons all together if you need to focus on learning mechanics. Everything doesn't need to happen all at once.

Learning a fight is something different than learning a class. There are dummies to get used to any rotations and positionals and in like 80% of a fight you´re able to play both strictly down. For everything else you´ve true north, gapclosers, instacasts, whatever a class offers. And when we talk about SAM, you just have to reset a DoT every 60s. The rest is a self-runner while playing 123.

I've seen wipes that close too. It wasn't the positionals that changed it though. It was less people dieing, one person getting a more crisp rotation, one less person out of position, one less time the tank moved the boss slightly wrong. Absolutely the last thing you should worry about is the positionals on all but MNK. Not once have I ever heard any any stream I've seen progressing content, that it is positional that make the difference.

That ppl missplay mechanics is still no excuse to not to give your best. And to give your best includes to play positionals on melees as much as tanks shouldn´t play triangle with the boss or overall all players should use medigation skills. I can´t even count how many ppl i saved with the shared defs from tanks or the PLD carries, when you take all damage away from the healer, so he survives and can use LB3.

Everything can make a difference and will do a difference, even having a handful more Kenki for a backjump/dash combo instead of running out like a chicken. It´s a fact noone can deny.

[Kolsykol]

I get it, I've seen it.
Got a FC mate who focuses on hitting those positionals.
So
Damn
Hard

Yet they miss mechanics and uptime, and struggle with using AoEs where appropriate.
I've tried to tell them the same thing; that they should focus on those other things first, and then work their way up to getting positionals consistently, but they're not having it

No one is even arguing against this, it's just an attempt to shift the conversation.
People are saying that if you're INTENTIONALLY missing them as in you're not even attempting to hit them but you're ignoring them on purpose then you're being bad.