Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Nanchi]

Seeing how this whole arc will end with 6.0 (I really hope its not rushed...) and we kinda have to still learn so much about Zodiark and Hydealyn/Venat, about the new countries and so on I just dont want precious time to be taken away from that to suddenly give Zenos his arc...

Well! Maybe now is the right time to tell you that Zenos has probably a bigger connection to the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc than most people predicted before. He's not just randomly placed into Endwalker because the boner he has for the WoL won't die (although that is also certainly the case) but him having dreams about the finals days for a long time, him being experimented on by emet-selch, having the resonance, now in cahoots with Fandaniel makes him a keyplayer in Endwalker.

Also yoship is the producer/director, he's not the writer and from what we've seen, greatly trusts what Ishikawa comes up with, even if he can't greenlit everything I am almost certain that his initial "yeh zenos be stronk, also he's kinda depressed bc Varis sucks as a father. " response has changed drastically. I mean- still yoship is probably not wrong. Zenos is not Emet-Selch, he's not Elidibus or one of the Scions, he has his own motivation and that is the WoL. He doesn't need a redemption arc, he wants to feel alive and experience that feeling of ecstasy again by fighting the WoL on a grand stage. I don't think his plans will come to fruition though, because it's far too predictable to have that happen. So, me being bias and holding out hope, ((Zenos possible trust member hmmm??? Hmm????!!! Just throw me a bone, I take anything at this point. ))

[KizuyaKatogami]

Of course its not okay to be rude. But does it make it better when you are just rude back? You wrote after all that they must be slower people if they only liked the Ascians after Shadowbringer. Bascially you kinda attacked people that had nothing to do with the argument itself, because other topics show quite clearly that the poster who went "nobody liked them" does not like the Ascians at all. I read back until page 20 where it slowly began to go more towards Elidibus and comparing him to Zenos and honestly she was the only one that was a bit harsh about it. But since she barely got any likes for those two comments about nobody liking him before it and at least three people argued against her why would there be a need to argue further against her points? Especially since you guys even had more likes on your side which showed that at least for that more people agreed with you.

My slow comment wasn’t even an attack on anyone, it was a genuine comment. Some people are slower on the uptake if they don’t pay as much attention to the lore/story and that’s fine. All i was saying was don’t push a subjective response as fact that “oh nobody liked them before blah blah” all because they didn’t pay attention to pre shb details. That’s how misinformation gets spread which is rampant in the lore forums.

[Lauront]

Lahabrea is my favorite ascian and his basically zenos 1.0 since his absolutely insane knowing who he was before he lost his marbles just make him more likable to me then again maybe running the msq like 2000 times have driven me insane too

I actually agree with this in parts. They had some room to work with the fact that he was absorbed into Nidhogg's eye and could've had him coming out rejuvenated, if not worse for wear mentally. Whatever they do with him, I hope Pandaemonium delivers and they finally give him a fight worthy of an unsundered Ascian, as the finale of one of the sets of floors, coupled with some insight into his ancient persona.

Well! Maybe now is the right time to tell you that Zenos has probably a bigger connection to the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc than most people predicted before. He's not just randomly placed into Endwalker because the boner he has for the WoL won't die (although that is also certainly the case) but him having dreams about the finals days for a long time, him being experimented on by emet-selch, having the resonance, now in cahoots with Fandaniel makes him a keyplayer in Endwalker.

Also yoship is the producer/director, he's not the writer and from what we've seen, greatly trusts what Ishikawa comes up with, even if he can't greenlit everything I am almost certain that his initial "yeh zenos be stronk, also he's kinda depressed bc Varis sucks as a father. " response has changed drastically. I mean- still yoship is probably not wrong. Zenos is not Emet-Selch, he's not Elidibus or one of the Scions, he has his own motivation and that is the WoL. He doesn't need a redemption arc, he wants to feel alive and experience that feeling of ecstasy again by fighting the WoL on a grand stage. I don't think his plans will come to fruition though, because it's far too predictable to have that happen. So, me being bias and holding out hope, ((Zenos possible trust member hmmm??? Hmm????!!! Just throw me a bone, I take anything at this point. ))

Fandaniel's "secret" Yoshi alluded to, has me hopeful they will use Zenos more as a plot lever, as it looks like Fandaniel will be more than a 2 bit jester there just to realise Zenos's plans. I could see Zenos becoming an ally, even if temporary. He doesn't interest me much himself, even at a conceptual level, but there's interesting lore writing around him for them to delve into. Needless to say, Fandaniel and his [redacted] are where my main interest lie going forward.

[Alleo]

Well! Maybe now is the right time to tell you that Zenos has probably a bigger connection to the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc than most people predicted before. He's not just randomly placed into Endwalker because the boner he has for the WoL won't die (although that is also certainly the case) but him having dreams about the finals days for a long time, him being experimented on by emet-selch, having the resonance, now in cahoots with Fandaniel makes him a keyplayer in Endwalker.

We will see if him seeing these past events truly will be a key. Maybe at the end he will be nothing but a puppet that is over his head and believes he somehow can control an elder primal like Zodiark. After all when Ishikawa was asked who her favorite character is she mentioned Fandaniel [...]. Maybe she meant Fandaniel, maybe she meant someone near him.

My slow comment wasn’t even an attack on anyone, it was a genuine comment. Some people are slower on the uptake if they don’t pay as much attention to the lore/story and that’s fine. All i was saying was don’t push a subjective response as fact that “oh nobody liked them before blah blah” all because they didn’t pay attention to pre shb details. That’s how misinformation gets spread which is rampant in the lore forums.

Then we have very different views on what counts as a attack. Also your follow with how they dont pay much attention to the lore is also just oof. (If those are all not attacks then honestly there was nothing rude at all about the other poster too.) So lets look at it from the perspective of the topic in this thread.

If someone did not like Zenos until know because he was nothing much in their eyes but Endwalker will bring new story points to him and now people might enjoy him more...are they now suddenly slow and someone dont pay attention to the story because they did not like before that? Does that sound fair to you?

What about Fandaniel? If you dont like him now because he is nothing much right now but that changes in the next expansion are the people slow and dont understand or pay attention to the story?

One of my favorite character is Alphinaud. But I would agree with anyone that would state that he was a bit annoying in the beginning of the story. Only later when he learned and grew as a character other people also started to like him. Are those people slow and did not pay attention to the lore? Or could it maybe be that sometimes characters are just not interesting enough in certain states of the story? There will barely be any character that gets introduced and is just perfect and fully developed at that time. Of course one can already like that version but that does not mean that everyone that does not like them that way and only enjoy them after the development are slow and dont know their lore...

The comment that nobody liked them before was bad, I fully agree...but it was stated by one person that does not like the Ascians at all. So your argument that they are just slow does not even match them.

Also curious about the rampant issue of misinformation spreading here on the lore forum. IMO I get the feeling that its not misinformation but mostly just people with different views on something that can be viewed from different perspectives or where we dont even have the whole answer right now. Otherwise I would be very curious about these seemingly huge problems here on the lore forum.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

My point wasn’t them liking or disliking who they want. People can like or dislike whoever they want. It was against people who push their opinion as fact(again a common problem here) and then try to make it out to be bigger than it actually is. This has nothing to do with this actual thread tho so idk why we’re trying to play forum cop in here. As for misinformation, it’s a known problem people try to push their headcanon as fact and then it’s gets spread around and numerous people start to believe it as fact until someone posts actual in game evidence on it.

As for Zenos, i genuinely think he’s just going to be a tool used by Fandaniel and then he’s going to get rid of him asap. 5.5 made it very clear Fandaniel is in control and Zenos is out of the loop, and there are a lot of signs pointing to Fandaniel being related to Venat. That’s my guess at who the redacted is.

[Alleo]

My point wasn’t them liking or disliking who they want. People can like or dislike whoever they want. It was against people who push their opinion as fact(again a common problem here) and then try to make it out to be bigger than it actually is. This has nothing to do with this actual thread tho so idk why we’re trying to play forum cop in here. As for misinformation, it’s a known problem people try to push their headcanon as fact and then it’s gets spread around and numerous people start to believe it as fact until someone posts actual in game evidence on it.

As for Zenos, i genuinely think he’s just going to be a tool used by Fandaniel and then he’s going to get rid of him asap. 5.5 made it very clear Fandaniel is in control and Zenos is out of the loop, and there are a lot of signs pointing to Fandaniel being related to Venat. That’s my guess at who the redacted is.

People try to be a "forum cop" because some might simply not like being called slow just because they liked or understood Ascians better when they finally get more development. (Or in the case now also not knowing their lore) Especially when the people that are called that are not even arguing against your point. I for example agreed with a lot of the posts you, Lauront and Theodric made towards her when she tried to spin it so that nobody liked them before the expansion. (I just had nothing to say to that so I showed the support through likes) Yet suddenly I am slow because I only found them more interesting after they finally showed us their motivations in Shadowbringers.

People rightfully dont like it when someone says that if you like Ascians you must be bad in real life too. And I am quite sure that if someone goes and says that they did not like being called that, they they would absolute hate it if someone else comes out and says that they should stop tone policing or be forum cops. Should they be forced to accept it as snarky comment too? Or as something that was not meant as something mean, just an opinion? Anyways I said my points to that.

About postion opinions as facts: Will probably happen after all many different people discuss here. I doubt that its rampant and I am still missing precise examples which makes it even harder to see what one might already see as someone posting an opinion as fact.

So and on topic: I also hope that Zenos will just remain a tool that will be taken over by Zodiark at the end.

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

(Forgive the messy formating its like 3 in the morning lol)

Musing about Zenos pre-Endwalker and I have to say Square Enix's BIGGEST "dropped ball" was putting the Zenos' short story behind the chronicles of light book (Some people don't even know it exists) and we miss some pretty crucial context about

-His upbringing
-How his viewpoint was molded by it
-Cool Flavor about Near Eastern techniques (which were going to soon)
-More Personality from Zenos
etc.

Zenos to me is so compelling due to the fact that he compliments the warrior of light so well. If Emet-Selch and Elidibus are like mirrors, a warped perception of the WoL and how far people are willing to go to protect those they love, Zenos is simply the other side of the coin. In the way we are described as "Eorzea's blade in the darkness" who "shames others into behaving" just by virtue of us being who we are, Zenos is the perfect monster churned out from the Garlean machine. Uncaring, Unwavering, and a subscriber to the might makes right mentality fostered by his forbearers.

WoL brings out the best in others and acts as the standard for people to evolve (Alphinaud, Alisaie, Ardbert). Zenos brings out the worse in people by enabling them and drawing out the heinous parts of their character (Fordola, Yotsuyu, Ashahi) and when these two opposing forces crash together they find a likeness within each other but cannot resolve themselves to do anything but clash.

It's even acknowledged by Zenos. If you pick the "I accept you" option he says
"Heh heh... are we to embrace and let bygones be bygones? Do our deeds weigh so little that you would cast all aside? Come. T'was plain from the first how this would end."

That's why in Endwalker I truly hope Zenos doesn't become a "Scion" as the most interesting part of the relationship between these rivals would disappear. The point I'm trying to drive home is that Zenos can't drag the Warrior of Light into depravity as they are far too virtuous. However, the Warrior of Light can't pull Zenos up to where they are. He's too far beyond redemption.

In conclusion I think the THICC man is an awesome villain! He's really cool aesthetically, his voice actors in both languages are superb, and I feel like more people would enjoy him as a villain if you weren't forced to pull back the hood so much in comparison to others like Nidhogg, Emet, Elidibus, Yotusyu, etc.

[Bright-Flower]

More than just not locking a story behind a physical book, if it's important to understanding the plot or characters it should be in the game itself. It's one thing to flesh out some unimportant details in a side story, do a bit of world building you don't need in the msq etc, but if it's important to understanding the major characters or plot it really should be in the game. Thankfully FFXIV handles this a lot better than another certain MMO that I don't want to derail things with comparisons to here so that's all I'll say on that.

I will give Zenos credit for having a great VA, I don't fault the actor for my lack of interest in him. But he's just not my cup of tea. Not every villain needs to be sympathetic. Fandaniel's honestly growing on me for example despite not showing any redeeming qualities yet. But Zenos for me personally just isn't offering much, aside from the admittedly good voice acting.

He doesn't have an interesting motivation (for me). Note that this doesn't mean 'sympathetic' motivation, an interesting motivation can still be selfish or evil etc. And his 'bored by everything except persuing the big fight he wants' personality doesn't grab me either. Fandaniel's theatrics are growing on me in an entertaining campy way, but Zenos isn't.

And unfortunately Zenos doesn't work for me in terms of just feeling threatening either. Oh he's strong sure. He curbstomped us twice and beats up npcs all the time. But for all his strength he feels toothless when it comes to actually hitting us where it hurts. He beats us the Reach, but the resistance doesn't even have to abandon their base. He beats us in Doma but nobody we care about dies and this actually plays out in our favor in the Steppe. Suddenly in ala mhigo the story says 'okay we gotta wrap this up he can lose now.' And then afterwards he goes back to beating up npcs. He makes Gaius and Estinien run away but they get away just fine. He kills Varis but Varis' rant at the end of the negotiations torpedoed all of the interest the first half of it had been building in his character for me so I didn't have an emotional investment in his death. His actions cause a civil war that grinds the capitol into dust more or less but we don't know anyone there, and the empire has been an antagonist throughout the whole game. If the writers want me to actually fear Zenos, they gotta step up their game. Don't just give him a high power level. Let him do things that actually matter that hurt the WOL and those they care about in tangible, irreversible ways.

I hope that 6.0 will turn things around for me. I didn't like Emet Selch pre 5.0 so there is hope. I don't 'want' to dislike Zenos, but so far he really just doesn't offer me much.

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

And unfortunately Zenos doesn't work for me in terms of just feeling threatening either. Oh he's strong sure. He curbstomped us twice and beats up npcs all the time. But for all his strength he feels toothless when it comes to actually hitting us where it hurts.

Preface: I hope 6.0 turns things around for more people as well and I also agree that Zenos' to some can feel very unthreatening but I also feel like he got done dirty by the devs. His shock moment of cutting down Y'shtola's barrier hurts him because there is no way in hell that she was gonna die because of "marketing armor" But allow me to attempt and justify why Zenos is so "hands off" so to speak

Zenos arc to me feels like his story telling is very symmetrical. Zenos as a flat character like WoL doesn't evolve necessarily on their own but compels others to change. There is this one really good interaction that I haven't heard people talk about. It's on his history during the rebellion.

Liberation Front Infantry: What you have to understand is that it was not a simple matter of numbers. The bulk of the XIIth never even took the field. It was Zenos’s stratagems that won the war. They were unlike anything we had ever seen.

Liberation Front Infantry: His formations were unorthodox─bewildering. We honestly thought we had him on the back foot. One moment we were pressing home our advantage, the next we were surrounded and at his mercy.

Liberation Front Infantry: And then he stood before us, his cornered prey. Alone and unarmed. He beckoned us to come forward and fight for our lives.

Liberation Front Infantry: One by one, my comrades charged. Fearless and unflinching, he would dance amidst their blades for a time, and then draw close, as if to embrace…

Liberation Front Infantry: One…after…another. He made us watch. Do you understand? He made us watch.

Lyse: What kind of monster enjoys killing people?

Liberation Front Infantry: …I do not think there was any joy in it. Nor justice, nor morality, nor meaning. To him, the weight of one life is no different from that of a thousand.

Liberation Front Infantry: A challenge had been issued and was accepted. But on finding us no challenge at all, his objective changed.

Liberation Front Infantry: There were tales of imperial soldiers being flayed for slaughtering families. For breaking brave men’s spirits. Only later did I come to understand why. He did not desire obedience. He desired hate…and men consumed by it.

Liberation Front Infantry: A new battle. A new enemy. A new challenge. The hunt, I am told he called it. A hunt without end.

Liberation Front Infantry: And when all our best lay dead and broken, he left. He left, muttering that we had “bored” him.

Zenos' has a Nihilistic philosophy of stripping down people to their animalistic nature to expose what I can only assume is the "truth" (or what he believes to be the truth). That's why it's so cool that he has the ability to "see the colors of the soul" he can now peer into others and view their existence in it's purest form. It's also why He's so excited when he discovers that the god's that were supposed to be the highest form of being are simply constructs of man's will because It reaffirms his world-view that he towers above the gods.

A good way to look at Zenos' motivation is to look at a character introduced recently with a near identical one, that being "Beast-King Lyon". Lyon relishes battle for the sake of battle, the raw adrenaline rush from fighting. Zenos shares this to an extent but I feel that his "Hunt" is different. When man is being true to themselves, embracing violence with clarity it validates his existence. When his own "personal truth" confronts another's that's where the "thrill" comes from and if they're too weak to see what they believe to fruition it disappoint him. He plants the seeds of hate and then Reaps ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) the harvest.

[KageTokage]

The fact that he's playing a significant role in Fandaniel's schemes by manipulating the "dreamer" does give him more ability to be a threat in spite of otherwise being content to wait for us to come to him in Garlemald...though given what we know from pre-release material it seems like we're going there sooner then later so I feel like we're going to just have an initial encounter with him and his pet primal before he retreats to the moon to claim Zodiark.