Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Theodric]

At the end of the day it's a game and the characters within the story are entirely fictional - they're not real. It's always struck me as bizarre when people attack others for liking or disliking a character or faction that they and their immediate circle of friends see differently.

I'm also a little confused as to what exactly such comments have to do with the thread's premise in the first place, though.

[Lauront]

Ill-qualified? What a ridiculous accusation to make. I was actually here prior to shadowbringers, which is more than we can say about some of the other people who have been adding in their two cents.

Maybe you thought Elidibus was the pinnacle of storytelling back in ARR, but I and most others sure as heck were not the least bit impressed with him.

Ill-qualified in the sense that you won't be able to produce any evidence of it other than your say-so. There is a world outside this forum, and people with different character preferences to yours.

But I'll just say your "nobody" is blatant nonsense.

With that said, you are free to labour under whatever misapprehensions you wish.

Good day.

[Cilia]

I don't have a whole lot to say, other than calling everyone who didn't find the Ascians all that compelling prior to Shadowbringers "slow" is incredibly condescending, and that this sort of behavior being supported is making this a rather unfun place to be.

[Theodric]

That's a very fascinating comment in light of the fact that it is not at all uncommon for certain posters around these parts to imply that anyone who dares to like the antagonists or villains in this game is wrong to do so and/or a bad person with a flawed moral compass.

Mysteriously, other than the individuals targeted there's no real backlash against such commentary but then when those same individuals inevitably get frustrated and maybe let loose a playful quip or snarky comment, the tone policing begins then and only then.

I'm not one to tolerate gaslighting or concern trolling, so I will not do so.

[Alleo]

"These characters are all just fictional why be so angry about it."
And yet we have 26 pages of discussion about Zenos and if he is a good or bad character and should be there for endwalker. Let not kid ourself, we all get defensive when its about our favorite characters, yes even you Theodric. How many discussions did we have about Garlemald which turned heated?

If people did not care about these fictional beings (some more, some less) then you would not feel frustrated by others.

[_Koneko_]

Lahabrea is my favorite ascian and his basically zenos 1.0 since his absolutely insane knowing who he was before he lost his marbles just make him more likable to me then again maybe running the msq like 2000 times have driven me insane too

[KizuyaKatogami]

"These characters are all just fictional why be so angry about it."
And yet we have 26 pages of discussion about Zenos and if he is a good or bad character and should be there for endwalker. Let not kid ourself, we all get defensive when its about our favorite characters, yes even you Theodric. How many discussions did we have about Garlemald which turned heated?

If people did not care about these fictional beings (some more, some less) then you would not feel frustrated by others.

Still doesn’t justify hating on others or people being openly rude because some people may enjoy the antagonists or share their perspective, which is something commonly seen on this forum. It’s why when people say there weren’t ascian fans before shb...gee i wonder why they were so quiet. Maybe it was they were constantly persecuted whenever they said it lmao. It’s pretty bad when even after ShB, where the devs have said it’s all a matter of perspective, people still continue to attack others for their liking of antagonists. I think Theodric’s point here is people shouldn’t be harassing others because they side with a fictional character in a video game just because they do “bad things”. There are many cases of people not being to separate reality from fiction and calling fans of the ascians or garlemald various...names.

[Nanchi]

That is exactly the reason why I'm a long time lurker and don't participate in the lore forum. The bias that is going around is not something I want to deal with. Nontheless I'm here to raise my hand in saying that I was always intrigued by Elidibus and yes I've played the game since ARR, maybe because there was little else known about them so jumping to conclusion that all Ascians suck just seemed overly pessimistic and narrow minded. Especially after SHB all these nay-sayers should take a step back and stop condemning anyone who isn't seeing characters as black and white.

Back to Zenos. Probably one of the least liked characters in the game, you really either hate him or love him. But I hope people become a little bit more open minded and give the writers a chance to fix the issues that were present in Stormblood, when Zenos was still the "main villain". Because now I feel like even if they manage to form something cohesive and really exceptionally well written in terms of Zenos, people will just keep shitting on him regardless, because the first impression is already ruined for them.

[BlitzAceRush]

Back to Zenos. Probably one of the least liked characters in the game, you really either hate him or love him. But I hope people become a little bit more open minded and give the writers a chance to fix the issues that were present in Stormblood, when Zenos was still the "main villain". Because now I feel like even if they manage to form something cohesive and really exceptionally well written in terms of Zenos, people will just keep shitting on him regardless, because the first impression is already ruined for them.

This is the real take away I feel, there is nothing wrong with liking the Ascians pre Shadowbringers, but there was a reason they were meemed on by a lot of the community, they came across as very shallow comic book villains. Sure there were hints that there was something more, constantly there were lines, mostly from Elidibus that there was something we were yet to understand. However, one base game and two expansions later and we still only had "The one true god!" So it was understandable why many refused to take them seriously. Then came Shadowbringers and Emet and it managed to transform them from a black robed cult regurgitating the same lines into a somewhat sympathetic group that some could sympathise with, some could at least acknowledge their plight but we all now could understand them, they became good villains actual villains with a clear goal and motivations.
However, they've been around since 1.0-5.3 Vs Zenos's 4.0-6.0 and occupied far more space than Zenos has to get to where they are now, so in the grand scheme of things, Zenos's "boring" or "unsure" phase has been far shorter than the Ascians, and if his Shadowbringers is Endwalker, then like them he should be allowed a little redemption for a wonky start, otherwise the Ascians should have been trashed around Heavensward and we never would have gotten Emet.
So either way, he's here for Endwalker, he's been given a second chance to deliver and hopefully he will, the Ascians did, with the right writer and the a third or fourth chance.

[Alleo]

Still doesn’t justify hating on others or people being openly rude because some people may enjoy the antagonists or share their perspective, which is something commonly seen on this forum.

Of course its not okay to be rude. But does it make it better when you are just rude back? You wrote after all that they must be slower people if they only liked the Ascians after Shadowbringer. Bascially you kinda attacked people that had nothing to do with the argument itself, because other topics show quite clearly that the poster who went "nobody liked them" does not like the Ascians at all. I read back until page 20 where it slowly began to go more towards Elidibus and comparing him to Zenos and honestly she was the only one that was a bit harsh about it. But since she barely got any likes for those two comments about nobody liking him before it and at least three people argued against her why would there be a need to argue further against her points? Especially since you guys even had more likes on your side which showed that at least for that more people agreed with you.

So why the attack on others than her? This I guess is what Cilia was talking about. She was not taking her side. She was simply pointing out that its kinda bad that in reaction to that poster now suddenly everyone that did not find the ascians that interesting before shadowbringers are slow.

The rest of the argument was not about the posters that liked the characters but about the characters itself which is what should happen in a healthy discussion.

So no I am not saying that there arent those that attack the posters behind the things (but that goes both sides, I can remember quite nicely how I was more than once called as someone who is tempered just because I still side with Hydealyn right now and because I defend her in discussion...) but the majority of people just post their opinions.

And if they believe that the government of Garlemald is evil or that the Asicans are evil in their eyes does not just mean that anyone that likes them is the same. As as someone from Germany when I write that Garlemald kinda feels like a certain dictatorship from my countries history, I dont mean that people who like them are one as well...but I do get the feeling that some posters take these things already as personal attacks. (Just like how it feels that some feel personally attacked if you dont like some aspect of the game)

About the topic:

My heart goes both ways...I can go behind the argument that he may be able to shine if he gets his time in the next expansion. At the same time I remember that Yoshida wanted him to be a character that is simply just evil and that he had a whole expansion they could have used...heck they could have used the time after he got his second chance to slowly show a change in him..but even in the trailer we got he still basically just waited to fight us. Seeing how this whole arc will end with 6.0 (I really hope its not rushed...) and we kinda have to still learn so much about Zodiark and Hydealyn/Venat, about the new countries and so on I just dont want precious time to be taken away from that to suddenly give Zenos his arc...