Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Rosenstrauch]

Y'know, I can't help but wonder if they could've killed three birds with one stone by having Yda still be alive right up until the assault on Rhalgr's Reach.

Picture it like this: We reunite with Yda at the end of 3.4, but there's something off about her. Whereas Yda was generally well-mannered and her apparent cluelessness was just part of her eccentric sense of humor, this Yda is rude and genuinely clueless about things she really ought to know. She chafes the Scions' goodwill, especially in light of the events of 3.4. She's also very, very gung-ho about getting back to Ala Mhigo. 3.5 rolls around, Papalymo does his thing, and we get the "Yda is Lyse" reveal. Except Lyse wasn't pretending to be Yda for the past six years. It's been barely a few weeks at most. The real Yda has taken over Conrad Kemps' duties as the leader of the Ala Mhigan resistance, and sent Lyse back with Papalymo in the hopes that he and the Scions would keep her out of harm's way.

Naturally, that's gone all to hell. Lyse is apologetic about the deception, we get our "we knew all along" stuff because it's actually obvious now, but the player isn't made to be out of the loop by virtue of having never met the real Yda.

Anyways, with the story rolling over into Stormblood, we reunite with Yda. There's tension between her and her sister over their last moment together. We do our stuff in there. Rhalgr's Reach is attacked. Zenos has his effortless squash match against us. When we break one of his katanas, he's naturally interested. But he sees we're completely spent by that point and goes in for the kill regardless. Yda is the one to save us from him—and she's killed in the process. Lyse has to deal with her sister having just died in front of her, and naturally gravitates towards the Scions in an attempt to put distance between her and that.

And there you go. Zenos has killed a main character, so we the players have a reason to hold a grudge against him—important side characters like Meffrid and Conrad Kemps just don't have the same impact, y'know? Yda is given a proper sendoff onscreen with a heroic sacrifice, instead of having been dead all along in an unnamed and unseen moment six years ago. Lyse has a starting point for her character to grow from other than "Yda, but without Papalymo to play off of", and her eventual destination of "Yda, but mostly serious" won't feel like the character just sort of shuffling her feet for six zones and calling it a character arc.

[Bright-Flower]

I feel like that would just make the Yda deception even weirder honestly.

I don't think Zenos necessarily needed to kill a main character. But the way the attack on the Reach was handled could have been done different to have a bigger impact.

For one, even the minor character that died there was killed not by Zenos but by Fordola. If I'm not misremembering the attack on the Reach was even implied to be Fordola's idea in the imperial side cutscene before it. Honestsly I kind of wish Fordola had been in charge and not Zenos, she had an actual stake in the outcome of the war story where Zenos was bored by it. Having the enemy been an ala mhigan who sides with the empire and a side antagonist who is obsessed with the WOL as a personal rival IMO works better than having the side antagonist be the one actually invested in the greater story and the enemy commander not caring about the war but only us.

One thing they could have done is had us forced to abandon the Reach. Then have us fight to reclaim it when we return to Doma. If we'd had to fall back to Castrum oriens or w/e it would have helped sell it as a devastating blow. But it felt really jarring to me that their SECRET GLAMOUR HIDDEN BASE was attacked but they didn't feel the need to fall back or relocate.

Zenos' fight itself should have been handled differently. If they MUST put in an 'unwinnable boss fight' they should have done it differently. One example I like to point to is the fight against the tiger crystal L'cie at the end of chapter 3 of Final Fantasy Type 0. You're desperately dodging and voiding his attacks, that will quickly destroy you, frantically trying to just not die.

In Zenos' first fight, it's not a difficult or frantic struggle to survive against a superior foe. It's a fairly standard instanced fight but with his health pool inflated. Which makes the fight feel like a slow tedious encounter even though it isn't really all THAT long. It doesn't feel like you're against a foe you can't help to contend with, it feels like something you could chip away at if the game actually let you and then suddenly the 'you lose here' trigger occurs and you lose in a cutscene.

Instead, I think they should have had Zenos going all out, with his damage ramping up and up, and having it end when you die instead of 'you got the boss to X% you lose now.'

[Lauront]

Instead, I think they should have had Zenos going all out, with his damage ramping up and up, and having it end when you die instead of 'you got the boss to X% you lose now.'

They really don't seem to make much use of such an approach, even though they should, IMO. I was disappointed they didn't use this kind of approach with Hades phase 1, and it certainly would've helped make Zenos's fights a touch less dull.

[Bright-Flower]

They really don't seem to make much use of such an approach, even though they should, IMO. I was disappointed they didn't use this kind of approach with Hades phase 1, and it certainly would've helped make Zenos's fights a touch less dull.

I'm not sure I'd want it in a trial or any other multi player fight, where you're supposed to lose. People would just then die on purpose right away and that also kills any tension.

I think it works best in single player scenarios where you don't neccisarily know you're 'supposed' to lose, and so you give it your all trying to hold on and then get overwhelmed.

[Vyrerus]

Zenos' fight

His HP isn't inflated, actually. You're literally dealing 90% less damage than you're normally capable of, and you are missing an awful lot. Plus there's two phases to both fights. They both start out with allies aiding you, and then Zenos does Concentrativity after a set amount of time, and it knocks them out of the fight, but you remain (And there's dialogue going on during too).

If he were using his real power in either fight, then you wouldn't really get to fight at all. You'd die to the first swing of Unmoving Troika, unless you were a tank.

I think the first battle presents the situation well. Zenos is bored, and he's just watching you to see how strong you are, while setting out some simple attacks. You fail to impress him, so he ends it and calls you pathetic. Though he did break a sword on you. Which is why you get to live, because you're not worth drawing another one on.

The second fight you're actually dealing somewhat normal damage for the first half while Yugiri is there, and she LB3s him(and it only does 14.3k). He then powers up, and it turns into the same fight as before. You can barely land hits on him, let alone scratch him, and if he didn't choose to just end it, then you would die before you got him half way down. He also does way more attacks than the first time around. Lightless flames, tangible copies of himself, Ame-no-Hibakiri, and loads more of Vein-Splitter. The fighting area is a lot smaller, so if you're not careful you will take damage, and you can duty fail that one relatively easily.

The first fight is a superior foe deigning to see what you're made of, and the second fight is you showing that you've moved up quite a ways but still not enough.

In Zenos's final fight with you, before he mantles Shinryu, he uses his full power. It is enough, and I have seen people fail to it. Should you live through all that he brings to bear, at the end of the fight he takes a book out of 80/180 Behemoth's book and mingles auto attacks with repeated castings of Concentrativity over and over until one of you is dead. He could have done that or anything else in the earlier fights to kill you.

It's much better conveyed and done than the Ran'jit fight in SHB. In that one, especially on tank, Ran'jit definitely feels like someone you could kill if the game would allow it (Lyna be like, "We're overmatched! 10 seconds in and he's at 80%). They don't because they have further narrative use for him, but unlike in the Zenos fight where he uses Concentrativity first to remove people and it deals 80% of your HP, Ran'jit instead uses some overblown version of Raiton one at a time, and then has Gukumatz do a move called wrath to push them out of the arena. Ran'jit is going all out in every battle that he is in, and his fusion later doesn't even seem like an actual power up, because you fight him on Thancred first. By rights though, he should just be able to use his super Raiton to two shot anyone(which I'm pretty sure they hotfixed to make people take seriously, because my first time doing that fight I distinctly remember timing tank cooldowns to the dialogue and having it do nearly 0 damage to me).

Both are timed, so you see different %s on tank, DPS, or healer.

[Lauront]

Only if you allow it from the outset, tbh. Granted, that then means it would follow the model of reach X% HP threshold before it came into play, which you mentioned with Zenos, but I'd have liked to see a boss modeled after the god of death do something like that. They ended up doing something similar with Elidibus, where for once the "mash X button" mechanic was actually intense rather than lighthearted facerolling, but I believe it was a missed opportunity not to do it with the Ascian who represents an avatar of the Underworld.

[KizuyaKatogami]

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I think the first battle presents the situation well. Zenos is bored, and he\\\\\\'s just watching you to see how strong you are, while setting out some simple attacks. You fail to impress him, so he ends it and calls you pathetic. Though he did break a sword on you. Which is why you get to live, because you\\\\\\'re not worth drawing another one on.

The second fight you\\\\\\'re actually dealing somewhat normal damage for the first half while Yugiri is there, and she LB3s him(and it only does 14.3k). He then powers up, and it turns into the same fight as before. You can barely land hits on him, let alone scratch him, and if he didn\\\\\\'t choose to just end it, then you would die before you got him half way down. He also does way more attacks than the first time around. Lightless flames, tangible copies of himself, Ame-no-Hibakiri, and loads more of Vein-Splitter. The fighting area is a lot smaller, so if you\\\\\\'re not careful you will take damage, and you can duty fail that one relatively easily.

In Zenos\\\\\\'s final fight with you, before he mantles Shinryu, he uses his full power. It is enough, and I have seen people fail to it. Should you live through all that he brings to bear, at the end of the fight he takes a book out of 80/180 Behemoth\\\\\\'s book and mingles auto attacks with repeated castings of Concentrativity over and over until one of you is dead. He could have done that or anything else in the earlier fights to kill you.

It\\\\\\'s much better conveyed and done than the Ran\\\\\\'jit fight in SHB. In that one, especially on tank, Ran\\\\\\'jit definitely feels like someone you could kill if the game would allow it (Lyna be like, "We\\\\\\'re overmatched! 10 seconds in and he\\\\\\'s at 80%). They don\\\\\\'t because they have further narrative use for him, but unlike in the Zenos fight where he uses Concentrativity first to remove people and it deals 80% of your HP, Ran\\\\\\'jit instead uses some overblown version of Raiton one at a time, and then has Gukumatz do a move called wrath to push them out of the arena. Ran\\\\\\'jit is going all out in every battle that he is in, and his fusion later doesn\\\\\\'t even seem like an actual power up, because you fight him on Thancred first. By rights though, he should just be able to use his super Raiton to two shot anyone(
Both are timed, so you see different %s on tank, DPS, or healer.

Tbf the zenos power level thing honestly makes 0 sense. The fact he wipes the floor with us basically those 2 times, we get stronger yes but the thing is, so does he. He gets the resonance which puts him even higher on the scale yet somehow we can beat him in Ala Mhigo? And then again with shinryu? The power scaling just doesn’t add up and i guess that’s the problem with Zenos. They tried to make him a massive threat but just forgoed any plot coherency for it.

[Vyrerus]

Tbf the zenos power level thing honestly makes 0 sense. The fact he wipes the floor with us basically those 2 times, we get stronger yes but the thing is, so does he. He gets the resonance which puts him even higher on the scale yet somehow we can beat him in Ala Mhigo? And then again with shinryu? The power scaling just doesn’t add up and i guess that’s the problem with Zenos. They tried to make him a massive threat but just forgoed any plot coherency for it.

I thought it added up just fine. We don't actually know at what point he gained the Resonance. Even though he did, Fordola gained it too. We beat her, so it's not that big of a deal compared to his "natural" strength anyway. Also in Ala Mhigo, we get that line about, "Gather your most trusted comrades." To explain away why it's a dungeon, so we fight him with 3 talented adventurers and the WoL.

As for beating him as Shinryu, well, mantling a primal is all well and good, but it's not any less believable than beating Thordan. Thordan was the summation of 1,000 years of piety. one of Nidhogg's Eyes, and the entire Heavensward. He also got to drink up a Source Ascian and some of the Warring Triad's power juice. Shinryu was just both of Nidhogg's eyes, Ilberd's hatred, and that swathe of the Ala Mhigan Resistance that followed him. Nevermind that the eyes lost aether by Ilberd using them at the top of Baelsar's Wall to try and kill us. Shinryu had also just come out of a subdued and weakened state, and we know from watching Garuda try and fail to temper us that when it tried to temper us along with Zenos and not only fail but have its will subsumed... it's another weakening to the primal. Plus it started out "life" sealed by Papalymo. Imagine how much stronger it could have been.

[Bright-Flower]

I think Ran'jit was overall handled better in the story.

He does have the annoying 'you lose now' moment and somehow we're able beat him at the end because...I guess just vertical mmo power scaling, but where Zenos is basically portrayed as untouchable, Ran'jit is presented as a threat but like he has to actually try and feels like he can be thwarted. Instead of 'beats you easily, beats you easily, oh you're level 70 now so you can beat me' we see him having to flee when Titania attacks his forces, we see Thancred dunk on him and knock him into the hole, we're able to fight him in an apparantly even enough match before that when the viera stun him so we can get further inside, then Thancred is able to beat him going all out before we finally fight him.

I think I may have liked Zenos better in SB if he was closer to that. Someone strong and of comparable power to us but not 'no chance, no chance, okay now you can fight him' it felt a lot better with Ran'jit. It also helps that unlike Zenos he had an actual stake in the plot even if we only start to see hints of that toward the end. My only real issue with Ran'jit is I feel like he should have died after the duel with Thancred, leaving Vauthry floundering on what to do without him to better explain the disorganized state we find Eulmore in. The final duel with him doesn't really add anything except I guess making us feel strong because we lost to him before I guess.

[Vyrerus]

I think Ran'jit was overall handled better in the story.

I don't think so.

Ran'jit is exposited as being untouchable by your same allies that later go on to battle an original Ascian. It's silly precisely because what's being exposited is drastically different from what's being shown in gameplay. He also doesn't consistently use his same moves. He never uses the Mega Raiton again after the first encounter. He only seems more integrated with the plot because he has many interactions with your NPC allies. His role could basically be filled in by any bad guy the writers wanted to use, but it's easier to reuse the same guy over and over.

I don't know why you say Zenos had no stake in the plot. Zenos drove the entire plot of 4.0. The attack on Rhalgr's Reach was his response to us destroying that prototype and killing its associated squad. He's the commander for both fronts, but leaves Doma in Yotsuyu's hands, because the imperials found Shinryu bound by Omega. He let the Doman Liberation Front grow by deciding not to kill those villagers. He had Fordola imbued with the Resonance. Just because they're not on your butt 24/7 doesn't mean a villain doesn't have stake in the plot. It just means they're a power bottom. /wink