Risk Factor. Can I have it?

[Riaayo]

go play demon souls/dark souls..... Thats what I want for punishment! I wanna throw my controller, I wanna get mad! It makes me try even harder next time!~ As I said, people wanna feel something, they don't wanna be a droid. With great frustration comes great happiness.

There are TONS and TONS of casual games out there, they are becoming the norm because it brings in money. Game companies need to stop catering to people and make stuff unique and not just think about money. Demon souls was one of those games. I want ffxiv to be one as well, even if it has a small crowd.

Controllers are expensive, I don't really want to throw it. If you enjoy being angry and pissed off at a game to the point of yelling then that's fine I guess, everyone has their own thing, but I play games and mmos to have fun with friends and enjoy myself, and being in a situation where a game has shit on us so hard that we are all mad, pissy, cursing or even yelling is not fun or enjoyable or anything but extremely unpleasant to deal with. I WANT hard encounters, I like bosses that are tough and not everyone can kill. But I should not de-lvl because I tried fighting it. FFXI's punishment for dieing meant I didn't go do fun things, I didn't try to solo this mob or that because the punishment if I failed was more of a burden than the fun I got out of trying. It essentially strangled the game.

Also, repair costs do not exist to punish you for dieing, they exist to pull money out of the economy. Again, punishment for not playing smart / dieing is that you don't win, that you waste time and have to try again... and if you keep doing poorly, you're not going to beat it. I think that works, and it's not "casual gaming." I can't even think of any game I have ever played other than FFXI that took things away from me in such a depressing way just because of a mistake.

Furthermore, SE wants to make money, and the more people that play this game the more money they will get. It's stupid to try and release a massive-scale mmo to a tiny audience; they would NEVER have even developed it if that was the goal.

By all means, add difficult bosses and hard content. Make that content kick our asses; but leave that ass kicking to our deaths; wasted time; and continued trial and error, not to making me go grind even more (a mechanic that needs to go away all-together) for something I ALREADY achieved.

[Arcell]

Well said Ria.

[Khal_Drogo]

Controllers are expensive, I don't really want to throw it. If you enjoy being angry and pissed off at a game to the point of yelling then that's fine I guess, everyone has their own thing, but I play games and mmos to have fun with friends and enjoy myself, and being in a situation where a game has shit on us so hard that we are all mad, pissy, cursing or even yelling is not fun or enjoyable or anything but extremely unpleasant to deal with. I WANT hard encounters, I like bosses that are tough and not everyone can kill. But I should not de-lvl because I tried fighting it. FFXI's punishment for dieing meant I didn't go do fun things, I didn't try to solo this mob or that because the punishment if I failed was more of a burden than the fun I got out of trying. It essentially strangled the game.

Also, repair costs do not exist to punish you for dieing, they exist to pull money out of the economy. Again, punishment for not playing smart / dieing is that you don't win, that you waste time and have to try again... and if you keep doing poorly, you're not going to beat it. I think that works, and it's not "casual gaming." I can't even think of any game I have ever played other than FFXI that took things away from me in such a depressing way just because of a mistake.

Furthermore, SE wants to make money, and the more people that play this game the more money they will get. It's stupid to try and release a massive-scale mmo to a tiny audience; they would NEVER have even developed it if that was the goal.

By all means, add difficult bosses and hard content. Make that content kick our asses; but leave that ass kicking to our deaths; wasted time; and continued trial and error, not to making me go grind even more (a mechanic that needs to go away all-together) for something I ALREADY achieved.

Hence, my compromise. Hell, keep repairing/deterioration if you want, BUT exp loss needs to be there. Otherwise, there's no accountability. Nobody gives a sh%^ if they die -hell, they can make strategies around it. At the very least, exp loss, but some kind of deleveling "cap" (like "limit breaks" in XI that, rather than allow you to push forward, they keep you from degressing). At worst, no deleveling at all.


Anyway, there needs to be something about dying that REALLY deters ppl from doing so, or they won't make as much of an effort to stay alive. Or worse, as mentioned earlier, they'll find away to exploit it.

[Arcell]

Hence, my compromise. Hell, keep repairing/deterioration if you want, BUT exp loss needs to be there. Otherwise, there's no accountability. Nobody gives a sh%^ if they die -hell, they can make strategies around it. At the very least, exp loss, but some kind of deleveling "cap" (like "limit breaks" in XI that, rather than allow you to push forward, they keep you from degressing). At worst, no deleveling at all.


Anyway, there needs to be something about dying that REALLY deters ppl from doing so, or they won't make as much of an effort to stay alive. Or worse, as mentioned earlier, they'll find away to exploit it.

Or you could not die for the sake of, I dunno, not sucking. Play well for the sake of playing well. Don't die so you're not a burden to your group. Don't die so you can win. Why do you need an awful, timesink, fun-killing punishment? Admittedly mostly my opinion but if they put in de-leveling or XP loss I'm quitting. Thankfully last they said they have absolutely no intention of doing so.

[Rokien]

Or you could not die for the sake of, I dunno, not sucking. Play well for the sake of playing well. Don't die so you're not a burden to your group. Don't die so you can win. Why do you need an awful, timesink, fun-killing punishment? Admittedly mostly my opinion but if they put in de-leveling or XP loss I'm quitting. Thankfully last they said they have absolutely no intention of doing so.

Hey, good point arcell, don't suck and not die, so you don't get the exp loss(or whatever penalty), huh, imagine that.... What it does is it forces people to get better so they don't digress from a level. Because right now, I could care less if 3 people die in my ifrit party... Ya would be nice to have a full party, but it isn't needed. Those people will learn faster if they can't keep their level.

[Lux_Rayna]

It's because THAT's what makes success more rewarding. It's because you face a dreaded penalty that you don't want to die. That's what made death respectable in FFXI, and added extra adrenaline to fights.

And I'm sick of people using the term time sink as if it's a bad thing, it's not. If things weren't spoon fed to everybody then the game would feel rewarding. If Ifrit/Moogle were once a week fights but guaranteed a drop people would not be as sick of them as they are after their 100th fight.

I honestly disagree. I don't think harsher penalties make success any more rewarding, unless you honestly don't care about succeeding and only care about avoiding peril. Imo success is success, the only thing that determines how great that success feels is the challenge. Greatest example is, say a really difficult crossword puzzle. OR maybe a ridiculously hard game of sudoku. Or maybe being able to spin a basketball on your finger. Heck, how about making it into the NBA? None of those things have a harsh penalty for failure (unless you were a dropout). Despite this, success still feels overwhelmingly good. Of course if you're an adrenaline junkie, you need high risks. Though any real adrenaline junkie wouldnt be playing MMO's to get his fix (though some do and claim hardcore status..makes me lol).

I agree with needing challenge, but challenge can't come until the mechanics of the game are finished. I also think only some things should be particularly challenging, others moderately challenging, and the rest relatively easy or mildly difficult. Not everyone can play an MMO 6-7 hours a day. In fact, the ppl most able to pay for the game are the ones with the least amount of time: college students and working adults. Of course kids can play too with parental financial support, but imo final fantasy built its fanbase on the kids that are now college students or adults in the workforce.

An isolated time sink is not bad...for example, achievements are great. But an entire game should NOT be a time sink, that is just terrible. Again, it isolates the ppl most able to pay for the game. Imo time sinks are a cheap way to add value to something that doesn't have value. Ppl should invest a lot of time into a game because it's fun, rewarding, or challenging. That's just the bottom line. Making anything take a ridiculous amount of time due to poor rng, ridiculously low drop rates, or crazy xp requirements is just cheap. It says "this isn't actually worth your time, so we're going to force you to put more time into it." Lazy lazy lazy. But again, I say, some time sinks are good. I just don't feel the entire game shoudl be one huge time sink. That is just a waste of time.

[Darkillumina]

I've already said what I needed to say in the past few pages (thanks for the many likes) but I do want to add/ask one thing.

Everyone makes such a big deal about the death penalty and how detrimental it was to FFXI but the number of times I died were relatively miniscule and were mostly due to player error that I corrected the next time I did whatever it was I was doing. I was also prepared for any journey with adequate silent/invis potions.

By the replies it seems like people were dying constantly and losing experience like crazy. I really think the problem was/is exaggerated by some. Or people just weren't careful and didn't make adequate preparation for whatever it was they were doing.

I do think the game needs to be more difficult (see my post a few pages back) I wouldn't complain either way if the death penalty was instated or left alone.

But I think we can all agree, the best part about the death penalty is that it kept people from bailing from a party immediately when they dinged as most wanted that buffer. This meant that someone else close to leveling wouldn't get shafted as is quite common in current mmo's where people get what they want/ding then bail on their team.

[Rokien]

WELL now they are going to take death out of the factor............ /sigh Esuna - Removes weakness.

The death penalty is laughable as it is, why not just due away with death all together now!? just make it where we can't die.

[Khal_Drogo]

I honestly disagree. I don't think harsher penalties make success any more rewarding, unless you honestly don't care about succeeding and only care about avoiding peril. Imo success is success, the only thing that determines how great that success feels is the challenge. Greatest example is, say a really difficult crossword puzzle. OR maybe a ridiculously hard game of sudoku. Or maybe being able to spin a basketball on your finger. Heck, how about making it into the NBA? None of those things have a harsh penalty for failure (unless you were a dropout). Despite this, success still feels overwhelmingly good. Of course if you're an adrenaline junkie, you need high risks. Though any real adrenaline junkie wouldnt be playing MMO's to get his fix (though some do and claim hardcore status..makes me lol).

Ok, sorry to say this, but those are horrible analogies. What makes that success so rewarding is that it's so hard to achieve. It's not hard to level. It's not hard to spam your abilities/attacks. And, thus, it's not hard to achieve anything in this game right now. And there are* usually penalties for failing to make it to the NBA and failure to achieve a lot of the success ppl seek out. Most of those ppl build their whole lives off of that plan. They make plans around it. If they fail, they may not have anything else. They may condemn themselves to a life of mediocrity by failing.

But, anyway, that's not the point. XIV isn't the NBA; it isn't a "hard game of sudoku;" and it sure as hell isn't "spinning a basketball on your finger." XIV is an MMORPG, and while their can't be a "game over" and a loss of w/e progress since you last saved, there should still be some sort of penalty for failing to measure up to your fellow-players.

Otherwise, as mentioned earlier, there's nothing to stop ppl from continuing to suck. They get to maintain their levels; they get to leech spots in end-game fights even if they've died enough to be several levels under what they need to be; they waste the time of the ppl they party with b/c they can't perform well; and they whine and b#%^ everytime someone mentions how much of a burden they are on the party.

Exp-loss/deleveling is one of the MANY features from XI that needs to be initiated in XIV in order to maintain any sort of "ranking system." It also gives ppl a reason to focus more instead of just playing half-a$$ed.

[Arcell]

WELL now they are going to take death out of the factor............ /sigh Esuna - Removes weakness.

The death penalty is laughable as it is, why not just due away with death all together now!? just make it where we can't die.

Because death still makes you fail content. Esuna may negate ONE death every once in a while, but if key parts of your party go down more than once in that window, you're going to fail. If your party wipes, generally that's considered a failure in your attempt at a particular piece of content. You can always try again but that's not the point, the point is that an attempt has failed so something went wrong. Is failure itself not penalty enough?