How fitting

[A-Omega]

Doesn’t matter where a skill originated, it matters how they implement it here. That’s like arguing an author’s spin on vampires. “Twilight doesn’t match Bram’s vampires so it’s just wrong”. Tons of jobs are meshed up to create one in this game. It’s how SE decided to breath life into the franchise. Some of it feels wrong, but I still accept that it’s their interpretation and creative right. It’s like the call back enemies we always fight. They bare the name, to trigger nostalgia, with a spin to make it feel original.

DRK never had life steal in this game, that ability was given to WAR. Another great example (and more relevant to FF14) is current Thaumaturge (excuse me for not remembering the abbreviation). 1.0 was a mesh up of FF11s DRK and RDM. Drain, Bio, Dia, Aspir, Banish, Spikes…just to name a few. What we have now is almost unrecognizable from its original iteration.

I totally get what’s being said, you do have a point in that argument, but it doesn’t fit for this game. You could argue the change, but unfortunately, it really doesn’t have a point.

[ninninin]

Doesn't matter whether it was given to WAR or not. You can't just *I don't care about lore. Life Drain make me OP and I want it*

There is something called "Ship of Theseus".


If you make the job that ignore lore it might as well have no lore nor a job name since it just *custom job that I prefer regardless of lore*

WAR wasn't capable to siphon life energy from anything. That art belong to DRK.

[Shurrikhan]

Same... I fail to see or comprehend what the point of all of this hostile back and forth is.

To (over)simplify: a Warrior main is angry about his job being gutted to a shallow husk.

I made a guess and my post was ignored, to continue the back and forth hostility, so I must have either missed the mark and my guess was wrong, or.. plot twist.. the point is the back and forth hostility.

Haven't been watching this thread much, but I'm sorry to hear that. It may have been lost among the sea of other, (much angrier) Au Ra faces. For others who had trouble finding it, see the snip below:

For the most part, my thoughts were on how to differentiate the means of self-heal and self-support effects, between Warrior and Dark Knight.

any way, that said... how about Warrior has instant heals and increase maximum HP as its focus, such as Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, and Dark Knight has magical barriers and convert damage dealt into HP as its focus...while, only Paladin has a literal heal spell, along with a pure damage reduction focus, whether the Paladin block attacks, or could even either have more damage reduction abilities than the other tanks, or be able to use damage reduction abilities more often than other tanks.

this makes three of the Tanks have different means of self-heal, instant-heal ability, heal spell, and damage-into-HP conversion, and have different self-support, maximum HP increase(along with instant-heal), magic barriers, and direct damage reduction.

while, the actual way in which this could function as "unique identity", would be either to make all Tanks have 0 abilities, spells, and/or WeaponSkills that do not match their given theme(I think this is a bad idea, but.. eh.), and is along the lines of a different theme, or make it some thing like each Tank has five or some number of actions that match their theme, and only one or two actions that do not match their theme.

That said, I'm having trouble understanding your meaning/intent with your last comment. I don't think anyone is asking that a given capacity, especially a vague or generic one, be entirely exclusive to their job.

To start from the least demanding common denominator, most seem to want the tank jobs to feel distinct when actually playing them, without necessarily requiring that they look distinct on paper.

(Personally, that's the camp I fall under, as I feel that capacity differences, for instance, are ultimately less impactful than differences in decision-making or playflow, even if they may look more distinct "on paper".)

Others would caution that some portion of capacity, or the way they reach that capacity, may need to be mutually exclusive if we want those jobs' feeling of play to differ as above. But that's already pushing towards a specific camp, rather than a common consensus. Others would be happy enough with more eclectic ways by which a job may distinguish itself.

For the time being, we have a few different traditions among the long-standing XIV jobs: one from XIV, one from XI, and another as some sort of awkward averaging of previous franchise iterations (in which case, say, Warrior is highly tied to "Knight"... and therefore rather muddied into/with Paladin, Dark Knight is hardly distinguishable from "Mystic Knight", "Warmage", etc., etc.).

Personally, I'm of the camp that XIV is XIV, and shouldn't short itself just to retain alignment with previous iterations, which are themselves rather jumbled or painfully barebone. But that is, again, one of multiple camps, just as are those who would seem to find XI iterations sacrosanct, and likely any movie an inherent failure if/when --in taking advantage of the new medium and opportunities presented to it-- it differs from its source work.

I disagree with the "LifeSteal" effect for Warrior. I think that the convert damage into HP self-heal theme should be most prevalent with Dark Knight, while Warrior aught to pair the maximum HP increase effect with a focus on instant self-heal abilities, such as Equilibrium.

Personally, I... don't see why, to be honest. Warrior has, in XIV, always been a more centered around its percentile life-steal (or, "healing for a portion of damage dealt", if one doesn't wish to bias the term towards vampirism) than DRK has been, in keeping with WAR's "the best defense is a good offense" sort of theme.

In either case, though, "lifesteal" is an incredibly generic effect, just as would be "damage-absorbing effects" or "healing abilities". I think what matters most is the sense and style of agency among/between the two.

For instance, as a WAR, I expect to be kind of pulled into the flow of combat, and then I simply live or die by that, whereas when playing as a DRK I expect to have a bit more choice or deliberateness in my actions. To use lifesteal mechanics or their tie-ins as example, as a Warrior I'd expect lifesteal to be appended to a wider variety of attacks, and therefore less selective, but also to be integral to other granular areas, like maximum HP, or an oGCD that deals damage based on my current HP (and therefore benefits from those maximum HP increases), etc., etc. As a DRK, I'd expect it to charge something I could tap into very deliberately, for less throughput per minute but perhaps a bit more when it really counted.

[Shurrikhan]

WAR wasn't capable to siphon life energy from anything. That art belong to DRK.

DRK in...

• FF2: Starts with a broadsword and buckler. Top proficiencies are with (one-handed) swords and axes. Some lore implications of mind-influencing capabilities. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF3: Can sacrifice HP to deal AoE damage. Can use White Magic. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF4: Can sacrifice HP to AoE or, in later versions, to double its attack (at HP cost per attack). No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF10-2: Excels in raw physical damage (albeit at low speed) and applies status effects such as Bio, Doom, and Blind. Immune to Poison, Petrification, Confusion, Curse, and Doom/Death. Can sacrifice health for a ST nuke or to AoE. Can cast Arcana spells. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF The Four Heroes of Light: Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. Deal increased damage as %HP decreases. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF13 Lightning Returns: Can sacrifice HP for additional damaging effects. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2008: Just a slower, hard-hitting attack mode for Cecil. As an AI job, it is a stepping stone leading to Mystic Knight and Berserker. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2012: Simply adds an HP-sacrificing Attack, Shadow Bringer. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Airborne Brigade: Requires BLM and WAR. Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Tactics (WotL): Drains HP or MP to maintain a throughput-increasing buff and can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can absorb both MP and HP.
• FF Dimensions: Sacrifices HP (Darkness or Onyx Wave) or MP (Ebony Slash) to deal additional damage. Lifesteal effect only affects auto-attacks, at a mere 10% of damage dealt. Increased relative range via the Backliner trait.
• FF XI: Has access to Black Magic, though less than as available to BLM or even RDM. Can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can mimic the effect of wielding a Blood Sword via the Blood Weapon skill once per hour, gaining health equal to damage dealt with basic attacks.

That's 3... out of 12 games with a playable "Dark Knight". But, sure, let's pretend lifesteal is somehow long-historied and exclusive attachment to DRK, let alone more integral or prevalent than HP-sacrificing skills such that XIV's lifesteal capacities ought be exclusive to DRK (even though Warrior, historically, sees as much use of lifesteal and they're both outdone by any Black Magic casters in games where Drain is a player-accessible spell), while lifesteal itself has been given to many a character that has nothing in common with DRK...

:: Side-note: the most repeated user of a "Blood Weapon" skill (even when limiting such to its HP-absorbing functionality) is... Firion, who is typically presented as an agile bow-, sword-, and spear-user in light armor.

[Lyth]

I don't think that it matters which tank is the 'lifesteal tank'. What matters is that each job provides a distinct gameplay experience without giving any one job a significant advantage over the alternatives.

I think if the dev team were creating FFXIV as a new MMORPG now, with our current job selection, DRK would probably be the most sensible choice for a lifesteal/HP manipulation tank. But it makes much less sense now to revise both DRK and WAR to get there, than it does to simply push WAR further along in that same direction. It's not that big a deal.

I do want to see the tank jobs commit more clearly to a central theme or mechanic. If you're going to have a dedicated lifesteal tank, build the entire job around it. You don't need any %DR cooldowns. You don't need any barrier shields. All these effects can be achieved through temporary HP.

Likewise, you could just as easily create a job around barriers and punishing enemies for attacking them. Zarya is a great concept. Enemies hit your barriers, you hit back harder and faster.

What I dislike is when the concepts get diluted. What's even worse is when another job gains access to your unique job flavour, while keeping their own unique identity.

Everyone has a token barrier shield, even if it makes no sense for them to be able to generate one. Everyone uses the same stock of %DR cooldowns. There can be different ways of achieving the same effect. You just need to commit to deliberately going in different directions with each job, and respect each job's design space. No, you can't have Cover. No, you can't have TBN. No, you can't have NF.

The problem is that the development team doesn't really know what each job's identity is, so they don't know how to put their feet down.

[Vyrerus]

DRK in FFXI

Let me paint the whole picture for you on that one, though you probably already know/knew at some point.

DRK had abilities similar to Warrior that raised attack and lowered defense, with its class identifier skill Souleater coming in at level 30 granting +25acc and taking 10% of your total HP and converting it directly to damage dealt on both auto attacks and physical weapon skills. It basically had Blood Weapon to offset that.

Within the confines of its black magic capabilities, it excelled in Dark Magic skill, with minors in Elemental and Enfeebling skill. Dark Magic skill affected the Drain and Aspir series of spells, spells that drain HP or MP. It got earliest access to Aspir II and as far as I remember, exclusive access to Drain II and Drain III. Drain II/III allowed it to drain and add the absorbed amount to total HP, granting it temporary hit points. This looped back into making Souleater more effective.

It also had Dread Spikes, which are spikes that deal counter damage that have endrain on them, granting the DRK HP back for being attacked. Incredibly effective, but had a drained HP total effect that would cancel the buff rather shortly against anything dangerous. Damage resolution also happens first, so if the DRK takes lethal damage they don't drain it back after they are already dead, receiving the KO status.

This variation of DRK has been in FFXI online since 2002, so it's got a 19 year history, to be fair. There's people that've been playing this type of DRK for almost two decades, and for the die hards, FFXIV's is a pale imitation at best (though certainly relatively more sturdy).

But yeah, I agree, DRK overall is about lifesteal for big damage. That's why people frowned when it was introduced as a tank. The Drains and things from FFXI version were all there to augment its life steals.

Big Sadge there too, cause none of its lifesteals worked on undead monsters, and a lot of times were subject to Souleater resistance to prevent DRK based zergs cause it used to bypass all defenses.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think that it matters which tank is the 'lifesteal tank'. What matters is that each job provides a distinct gameplay experience without giving any one job a significant advantage over the alternatives.

I think if the dev team were creating FFXIV as a new MMORPG now, with our current job selection, DRK would probably be the most sensible choice for a lifesteal/HP manipulation tank. But it makes much less sense now to revise both DRK and WAR to get there, than it does to simply push WAR further along in that same direction. It's not that big a deal.

Fully agreed. Granted, I do think there's space for them both to have lifesteal, in very different ways, but if we hadn't already had so much of WAR most filling that position, I wouldn't much care.

I do want to see the tank jobs commit more clearly to a central theme or mechanic. If you're going to have a dedicated lifesteal tank, build the entire job around it.

This is where I disagree, though. Lifesteal just isn't, itself, a sufficient theme by which to center a job.

Take your earlier spitball concept for Warrior whereby overhealing would increase maximum HP. Now, atop that, Warrior has previously had skills with potency that varies based on current HP, thus benefiting from maximum HP increases. Between those three factors we're finally getting somewhere that capitalizes on a theme. Lifesteal was the first valve we had to turn in getting there, but it's not as if we couldn't go other directions, nor that the job identity could, at a playflow or decision-making level, be summed up by just "lifesteal". It doesn't necessitate exclusive ownership over "lifesteal", but it's also the foundation for something potentially brilliant.

Consider a similar spitball concept for DRK that makes use of another traditional theme by which output increases as your %HP lowers (variously called Blood for Blood or Eye for an Eye). Sure enough, a natural fit for that would be HP-sacrificing skills, the most long-standing theme/mechanic among DRK iterations. But, if we didn't want DRK to then become painfully healer-dependent, above and beyond other tanks, just to engage with it kit, we'd probably want some sparse but powerful usage of life-steal (a la DA-AD or DA-SE, but probably with a higher baseline and not so often overwhelmed by competing with "pure offense" choices). That would again be dependent on some amount of lifesteal, but it'd be an altogether different theme.

Sometimes the minutia can be more effective than the basic type for establishing theme. Imagine if Shelltron (or whatever similarly often-used and bankable ability that might replace it) would auto-block until having absorbed X damage. That constraint would encourage CD-stacking atop Shelltron. Then, look at skills like Spirit Within, which similarly reward keeping yourself at high HP. Between them, you've got the beginnings of a theme whereby PLD wants to be steadfast at all times, as not to let the floodgates open and inevitably topple. That'd be why it has the only invuln that immunes all damage. That'd be partly why it has "emergency", throughput-sacrificing utility skills like Clemency; though it has faintly above-average strength when keeping itself ever strong during its thematic ability cycles, it's weaker in turn otherwise, and thus an "emergency" for them can start sooner than for most tanks. And all that, in turn, makes it a tank that particularly excels at (i.e., wants to be) swapping between being a strong shield, in itself, and cooperative vanguard -- very deliberate compared to the typical tank. To me, that's far more thematic than just "its eHP increase comes from RNG mitigation (Block)" or "it's the tank that has barriers", even if those give a more immediately recognizable point of departure.

[Shurrikhan]

Let me paint the whole picture for you on that one, though you probably already know/knew at some point.

Oh, I'm aware, even if it certainly has been a while. I've watched a friend play at endgame quite a few times more recently, though I've only hit 77 on it myself before dropping XI. I don't outright dislike the concept or anything. It's... fine, I guess? I just hate when someone insists that another game must play like their game, or decries all preferences otherwise despite showing little effort to parse out why their game's/prefererd version would actually be superior to the other apart from a vague and sometimes contradictory fixation on theme.

But yeah, I agree, DRK overall is about lifesteal for big damage. That's why people frowned when it was introduced as a tank. The Drains and things from FFXI version were all there to augment its life steals.

Mostly off-topic, but a quick note:

I'd have to argue that a tank is the role on which HP-sacrificing skills most make sense.

No, really, think about it. On any other role, there's virtually no cost, no interplay, in that sacrifice, outside of just occasionally being blocked out of it by an incoming raid AoE. It mostly just becomes rotational, whereby the WHM and AST maintain their HoTs on you, and maybe their numbers go down with further GCDs spent keeping you up while your numbers go up in turn and make you look strong and beefy despite your likely only being rDPS-neutral at best. If only one job can take on HP-sacrificing skills, in order to keep that mechanic unique and iconic, then it should be whichever role can see the most interplay. To spend it on a DPS or Healer would make a pretty pathetic showing of the concept.

Inversely, consider the tank, for whom sacrificed HP might amount, even, to gauge or MP or whatnot by which to afford even mitigation skills. With that, you still have the ability to use your own HP bar as a bank of potency by which to burstily finish off a dangerous enemy while the rest are stunned or out of range (and it'd actually be pertinent in its danger, unlike when on a DPS or Healer) or take further advantage of downtime, but you could also spend HP during damage lulls and spend the resource that HP afforded during damage spikes to smooth out damage intake. That... seems a near-perfect fit, role-wise.

[A-Omega]

Doesn't matter whether it was given to WAR or not. You can't just *I don't care about lore. Life Drain make me OP and I want it*

There is something called "Ship of Theseus".


If you make the job that ignore lore it might as well have no lore nor a job name since it just *custom job that I prefer regardless of lore*

WAR wasn't capable to siphon life energy from anything. That art belong to DRK.

This isn’t an argument so save the energy. It isn’t about WAR, FF14, my point, or your point.

The thing is. FF14 has its own lore, much like most FF games in the franchise. Iconic things remain, but things are constantly changing to make the old feel new. It’s literally what they’ve been doing with almost every game. Even the names of spells change. Blizzard/blizzara/blizzaga from Blizzard/2/3 and back again.

It’s not about right or wrong here…it just is. Did you play FF7 remake? Almost unrecognizable from the original even though it’s titled REMAKE. I loved the original FF7 and was looking forward to a remake, with current graphics… I was sorely disappointed, but committed to it nonetheless. The game isn’t horrible for what it is, just completely different lore then expected. It’s just what SE does whether we like it or not.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

That said, I'm having trouble understanding your meaning/intent with your last comment. I don't think anyone is asking that a given capacity, especially a vague or generic one, be entirely exclusive to their job.

To start from the least demanding common denominator, most seem to want the tank jobs to feel distinct when actually playing them, without necessarily requiring that they look distinct on paper.

(Personally, that's the camp I fall under, as I feel that capacity differences, for instance, are ultimately less impactful than differences in decision-making or playflow, even if they may look more distinct "on paper".)

Others would caution that some portion of capacity, or the way they reach that capacity, may need to be mutually exclusive if we want those jobs' feeling of play to differ as above. But that's already pushing towards a specific camp, rather than a common consensus. Others would be happy enough with more eclectic ways by which a job may distinguish itself.

I agree with that as well, and agree with you, which is why I said that I think it is a bad idea. The point of my last comment is because I have seen and ran into people that think different, and want or demand that a Subclass both look and feel unique, as well as to be unique in game-play function; so I put that part into my post, as I tend to attempt to put compromises alongside my own ideas, to work with people that do not agree with me.

For the time being, we have a few different traditions among the long-standing XIV jobs: one from XIV, one from XI, and another as some sort of awkward averaging of previous franchise iterations (in which case, say, Warrior is highly tied to "Knight"... and therefore rather muddied into/with Paladin, Dark Knight is hardly distinguishable from "Mystic Knight", "Warmage", etc., etc.).

Personally, I'm of the camp that XIV is XIV, and shouldn't short itself just to retain alignment with previous iterations, which are themselves rather jumbled or painfully barebone. But that is, again, one of multiple camps, just as are those who would seem to find XI iterations sacrosanct, and likely any movie an inherent failure if/when --in taking advantage of the new medium and opportunities presented to it-- it differs from its source work.

I have never played nor even seen FFXI, so I have no idea, to be honest... And I sit half-way into both "camps", I suppose. I can agree that new ideas are good and that FFXIV aught to have its own themes going for it, and not just to take ideas from else-where and copy and paste, but I also feel like references to other things, which FFXIV is full of, should be based on what the reference copies, or else the point of being a reference to another thing seems to have lost its point, in my perspective.

Personally, I... don't see why, to be honest. Warrior has, in XIV, always been a more centered around its percentile life-steal (or, "healing for a portion of damage dealt", if one doesn't wish to bias the term towards vampirism) than DRK has been, in keeping with WAR's "the best defense is a good offense" sort of theme.

In either case, though, "lifesteal" is an incredibly generic effect, just as would be "damage-absorbing effects" or "healing abilities". I think what matters most is the sense and style of agency among/between the two.

For instance, as a WAR, I expect to be kind of pulled into the flow of combat, and then I simply live or die by that, whereas when playing as a DRK I expect to have a bit more choice or deliberateness in my actions. To use lifesteal mechanics or their tie-ins as example, as a Warrior I'd expect lifesteal to be appended to a wider variety of attacks, and therefore less selective, but also to be integral to other granular areas, like maximum HP, or an oGCD that deals damage based on my current HP (and therefore benefits from those maximum HP increases), etc., etc. As a DRK, I'd expect it to charge something I could tap into very deliberately, for less throughput per minute but perhaps a bit more when it really counted.

I say that, because Ninninin aside, I have seen other Dark Knights that are mad about Warrior has convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effects, more than what Dark Knight does, and I have no idea how many Dark Knights feel that way... while.. say that both Subclasses, Dark Knight and Warrior, have the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect... Then come the complaints about the two being too similar, in another way than they already are, so either the complaints are ignored, which at this point is what I think may be better, or the complaints are addressed and one Subclass loses the effect in question.

I have to be the villain for one of the sides, when it comes to the decision of which Tank takes the loss, in which I chose to be the Villain for Warrior, as a personal opinion.

that aside, my opinion is that Dark knight and Warrior should both have convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effects, and although I have no idea how to explain that for Warrior, where-as with Dark Knight I can just call it Blood Magic, I see no reason to remove that particular self-heal effect from either Subclass. For a example, say that Warrior has two of them, Nascent Flash/Glint and a new one, while Dark Knight has four or five; to reference back to the comment in my old post.
For the sake of argument, if whom were to say that the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect "belongs to" Warrior more than Dark Knight, then it could just be the other way around, Warrior has four or five actions in that theme, and Dark Knight has two or three.

DRK in...

• FF2: Starts with a broadsword and buckler. Top proficiencies are with (one-handed) swords and axes. Some lore implications of mind-influencing capabilities. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF3: Can sacrifice HP to deal AoE damage. Can use White Magic. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF4: Can sacrifice HP to AoE or, in later versions, to double its attack (at HP cost per attack). No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF10-2: Excels in raw physical damage (albeit at low speed) and applies status effects such as Bio, Doom, and Blind. Immune to Poison, Petrification, Confusion, Curse, and Doom/Death. Can sacrifice health for a ST nuke or to AoE. Can cast Arcana spells. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF The Four Heroes of Light: Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. Deal increased damage as %HP decreases. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF13 Lightning Returns: Can sacrifice HP for additional damaging effects. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2008: Just a slower, hard-hitting attack mode for Cecil. As an AI job, it is a stepping stone leading to Mystic Knight and Berserker. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2012: Simply adds an HP-sacrificing Attack, Shadow Bringer. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Airborne Brigade: Requires BLM and WAR. Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Tactics (WotL): Drains HP or MP to maintain a throughput-increasing buff and can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can absorb both MP and HP.
• FF Dimensions: Sacrifices HP (Darkness or Onyx Wave) or MP (Ebony Slash) to deal additional damage. Lifesteal effect only affects auto-attacks, at a mere 10% of damage dealt. Increased relative range via the Backliner trait.
• FF XI: Has access to Black Magic, though less than as available to BLM or even RDM. Can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can mimic the effect of wielding a Blood Sword via the Blood Weapon skill once per hour, gaining health equal to damage dealt with basic attacks.

That's 3... out of 12 games with a playable "Dark Knight". But, sure, let's pretend lifesteal is somehow long-historied and exclusive attachment to DRK, let alone more integral or prevalent than HP-sacrificing skills such that XIV's lifesteal capacities ought be exclusive to DRK (even though Warrior, historically, sees as much use of lifesteal and they're both outdone by any Black Magic casters in games where Drain is a player-accessible spell), while lifesteal itself has been given to many a character that has nothing in common with DRK...

On this other scale... I would love and prefer that Dark Knight in FFXIV has the self-sacrificial Blood Magic that it has almost always had, but... that is never going to happen. I already gave up on Dark Knight, in that sense, as it will never be what I want it to be, whether that is similar to Dark Warrior, or similar to previous FF franchise Dark Knight versions... the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect, is probably the most close that FFXIV Dark Knight will ever get to, and still fall short of, Blood Magic; which is the reason why I like the idea of Dark Knight actions with the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect, which Ironically.. would go well with the self-sacrificial Blood Magic, much sorrow...

I don't think that it matters which tank is the 'lifesteal tank'. What matters is that each job provides a distinct gameplay experience without giving any one job a significant advantage over the alternatives.[...] / [...]I do want to see the tank jobs commit more clearly to a central theme or mechanic.[...] / [...]What I dislike is when the concepts get diluted. What's even worse is when another job gains access to your unique job flavour, while keeping their own unique identity.

again on a different scale(aiya, so much typing...), I agree with just about all of that. SE aught to hire some of the forum posters as job designers, even...