How fitting

[Shurrikhan]

WAR wasn't capable to siphon life energy from anything. That art belong to DRK.

DRK in...

• FF2: Starts with a broadsword and buckler. Top proficiencies are with (one-handed) swords and axes. Some lore implications of mind-influencing capabilities. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF3: Can sacrifice HP to deal AoE damage. Can use White Magic. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF4: Can sacrifice HP to AoE or, in later versions, to double its attack (at HP cost per attack). No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF10-2: Excels in raw physical damage (albeit at low speed) and applies status effects such as Bio, Doom, and Blind. Immune to Poison, Petrification, Confusion, Curse, and Doom/Death. Can sacrifice health for a ST nuke or to AoE. Can cast Arcana spells. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF The Four Heroes of Light: Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. Deal increased damage as %HP decreases. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF13 Lightning Returns: Can sacrifice HP for additional damaging effects. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2008: Just a slower, hard-hitting attack mode for Cecil. As an AI job, it is a stepping stone leading to Mystic Knight and Berserker. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2012: Simply adds an HP-sacrificing Attack, Shadow Bringer. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Airborne Brigade: Requires BLM and WAR. Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Tactics (WotL): Drains HP or MP to maintain a throughput-increasing buff and can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can absorb both MP and HP.
• FF Dimensions: Sacrifices HP (Darkness or Onyx Wave) or MP (Ebony Slash) to deal additional damage. Lifesteal effect only affects auto-attacks, at a mere 10% of damage dealt. Increased relative range via the Backliner trait.
• FF XI: Has access to Black Magic, though less than as available to BLM or even RDM. Can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can mimic the effect of wielding a Blood Sword via the Blood Weapon skill once per hour, gaining health equal to damage dealt with basic attacks.

That's 3... out of 12 games with a playable "Dark Knight". But, sure, let's pretend lifesteal is somehow long-historied and exclusive attachment to DRK, let alone more integral or prevalent than HP-sacrificing skills such that XIV's lifesteal capacities ought be exclusive to DRK (even though Warrior, historically, sees as much use of lifesteal and they're both outdone by any Black Magic casters in games where Drain is a player-accessible spell), while lifesteal itself has been given to many a character that has nothing in common with DRK...

:: Side-note: the most repeated user of a "Blood Weapon" skill (even when limiting such to its HP-absorbing functionality) is... Firion, who is typically presented as an agile bow-, sword-, and spear-user in light armor.

[Lyth]

I don't think that it matters which tank is the 'lifesteal tank'. What matters is that each job provides a distinct gameplay experience without giving any one job a significant advantage over the alternatives.

I think if the dev team were creating FFXIV as a new MMORPG now, with our current job selection, DRK would probably be the most sensible choice for a lifesteal/HP manipulation tank. But it makes much less sense now to revise both DRK and WAR to get there, than it does to simply push WAR further along in that same direction. It's not that big a deal.

I do want to see the tank jobs commit more clearly to a central theme or mechanic. If you're going to have a dedicated lifesteal tank, build the entire job around it. You don't need any %DR cooldowns. You don't need any barrier shields. All these effects can be achieved through temporary HP.

Likewise, you could just as easily create a job around barriers and punishing enemies for attacking them. Zarya is a great concept. Enemies hit your barriers, you hit back harder and faster.

What I dislike is when the concepts get diluted. What's even worse is when another job gains access to your unique job flavour, while keeping their own unique identity.

Everyone has a token barrier shield, even if it makes no sense for them to be able to generate one. Everyone uses the same stock of %DR cooldowns. There can be different ways of achieving the same effect. You just need to commit to deliberately going in different directions with each job, and respect each job's design space. No, you can't have Cover. No, you can't have TBN. No, you can't have NF.

The problem is that the development team doesn't really know what each job's identity is, so they don't know how to put their feet down.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think that it matters which tank is the 'lifesteal tank'. What matters is that each job provides a distinct gameplay experience without giving any one job a significant advantage over the alternatives.

I think if the dev team were creating FFXIV as a new MMORPG now, with our current job selection, DRK would probably be the most sensible choice for a lifesteal/HP manipulation tank. But it makes much less sense now to revise both DRK and WAR to get there, than it does to simply push WAR further along in that same direction. It's not that big a deal.

Fully agreed. Granted, I do think there's space for them both to have lifesteal, in very different ways, but if we hadn't already had so much of WAR most filling that position, I wouldn't much care.

I do want to see the tank jobs commit more clearly to a central theme or mechanic. If you're going to have a dedicated lifesteal tank, build the entire job around it.

This is where I disagree, though. Lifesteal just isn't, itself, a sufficient theme by which to center a job.

Take your earlier spitball concept for Warrior whereby overhealing would increase maximum HP. Now, atop that, Warrior has previously had skills with potency that varies based on current HP, thus benefiting from maximum HP increases. Between those three factors we're finally getting somewhere that capitalizes on a theme. Lifesteal was the first valve we had to turn in getting there, but it's not as if we couldn't go other directions, nor that the job identity could, at a playflow or decision-making level, be summed up by just "lifesteal". It doesn't necessitate exclusive ownership over "lifesteal", but it's also the foundation for something potentially brilliant.

Consider a similar spitball concept for DRK that makes use of another traditional theme by which output increases as your %HP lowers (variously called Blood for Blood or Eye for an Eye). Sure enough, a natural fit for that would be HP-sacrificing skills, the most long-standing theme/mechanic among DRK iterations. But, if we didn't want DRK to then become painfully healer-dependent, above and beyond other tanks, just to engage with it kit, we'd probably want some sparse but powerful usage of life-steal (a la DA-AD or DA-SE, but probably with a higher baseline and not so often overwhelmed by competing with "pure offense" choices). That would again be dependent on some amount of lifesteal, but it'd be an altogether different theme.

Sometimes the minutia can be more effective than the basic type for establishing theme. Imagine if Shelltron (or whatever similarly often-used and bankable ability that might replace it) would auto-block until having absorbed X damage. That constraint would encourage CD-stacking atop Shelltron. Then, look at skills like Spirit Within, which similarly reward keeping yourself at high HP. Between them, you've got the beginnings of a theme whereby PLD wants to be steadfast at all times, as not to let the floodgates open and inevitably topple. That'd be why it has the only invuln that immunes all damage. That'd be partly why it has "emergency", throughput-sacrificing utility skills like Clemency; though it has faintly above-average strength when keeping itself ever strong during its thematic ability cycles, it's weaker in turn otherwise, and thus an "emergency" for them can start sooner than for most tanks. And all that, in turn, makes it a tank that particularly excels at (i.e., wants to be) swapping between being a strong shield, in itself, and cooperative vanguard -- very deliberate compared to the typical tank. To me, that's far more thematic than just "its eHP increase comes from RNG mitigation (Block)" or "it's the tank that has barriers", even if those give a more immediately recognizable point of departure.

[Vyrerus]

DRK in FFXI

Let me paint the whole picture for you on that one, though you probably already know/knew at some point.

DRK had abilities similar to Warrior that raised attack and lowered defense, with its class identifier skill Souleater coming in at level 30 granting +25acc and taking 10% of your total HP and converting it directly to damage dealt on both auto attacks and physical weapon skills. It basically had Blood Weapon to offset that.

Within the confines of its black magic capabilities, it excelled in Dark Magic skill, with minors in Elemental and Enfeebling skill. Dark Magic skill affected the Drain and Aspir series of spells, spells that drain HP or MP. It got earliest access to Aspir II and as far as I remember, exclusive access to Drain II and Drain III. Drain II/III allowed it to drain and add the absorbed amount to total HP, granting it temporary hit points. This looped back into making Souleater more effective.

It also had Dread Spikes, which are spikes that deal counter damage that have endrain on them, granting the DRK HP back for being attacked. Incredibly effective, but had a drained HP total effect that would cancel the buff rather shortly against anything dangerous. Damage resolution also happens first, so if the DRK takes lethal damage they don't drain it back after they are already dead, receiving the KO status.

This variation of DRK has been in FFXI online since 2002, so it's got a 19 year history, to be fair. There's people that've been playing this type of DRK for almost two decades, and for the die hards, FFXIV's is a pale imitation at best (though certainly relatively more sturdy).

But yeah, I agree, DRK overall is about lifesteal for big damage. That's why people frowned when it was introduced as a tank. The Drains and things from FFXI version were all there to augment its life steals.

Big Sadge there too, cause none of its lifesteals worked on undead monsters, and a lot of times were subject to Souleater resistance to prevent DRK based zergs cause it used to bypass all defenses.

[Shurrikhan]

Let me paint the whole picture for you on that one, though you probably already know/knew at some point.

Oh, I'm aware, even if it certainly has been a while. I've watched a friend play at endgame quite a few times more recently, though I've only hit 77 on it myself before dropping XI. I don't outright dislike the concept or anything. It's... fine, I guess? I just hate when someone insists that another game must play like their game, or decries all preferences otherwise despite showing little effort to parse out why their game's/prefererd version would actually be superior to the other apart from a vague and sometimes contradictory fixation on theme.

But yeah, I agree, DRK overall is about lifesteal for big damage. That's why people frowned when it was introduced as a tank. The Drains and things from FFXI version were all there to augment its life steals.

Mostly off-topic, but a quick note:

I'd have to argue that a tank is the role on which HP-sacrificing skills most make sense.

No, really, think about it. On any other role, there's virtually no cost, no interplay, in that sacrifice, outside of just occasionally being blocked out of it by an incoming raid AoE. It mostly just becomes rotational, whereby the WHM and AST maintain their HoTs on you, and maybe their numbers go down with further GCDs spent keeping you up while your numbers go up in turn and make you look strong and beefy despite your likely only being rDPS-neutral at best. If only one job can take on HP-sacrificing skills, in order to keep that mechanic unique and iconic, then it should be whichever role can see the most interplay. To spend it on a DPS or Healer would make a pretty pathetic showing of the concept.

Inversely, consider the tank, for whom sacrificed HP might amount, even, to gauge or MP or whatnot by which to afford even mitigation skills. With that, you still have the ability to use your own HP bar as a bank of potency by which to burstily finish off a dangerous enemy while the rest are stunned or out of range (and it'd actually be pertinent in its danger, unlike when on a DPS or Healer) or take further advantage of downtime, but you could also spend HP during damage lulls and spend the resource that HP afforded during damage spikes to smooth out damage intake. That... seems a near-perfect fit, role-wise.

[ninninin]

DRK in...

Let pretend that Dissidia doesn't have XIV influence. Let pretend that all of this title was made by the same team. Blood Weapon doesn't mean LIFE DRAIN. I bring that up to show that what was belong to DRK has been taken to give to other tank.

I said

Life Drain ability on the other hand has been with DRK far longer.

I didn't say the first drk born with it. I like how you try to raise the fact that since life drain has been absent from DRK in some FF mean that life drain is not DRK's trait.

I just hate when someone insists that another game must play like their game, or decries all preferences otherwise despite showing little effort to parse out why their game's/prefererd version would actually be superior to the other apart from a vague and sometimes contradictory fixation on theme.

And in the end it boil down to "I just hate"

We have history, We have lore as reference. You on the other hand only have "I prefer" by your logic Black Mage could start summon Bahamut in the next game and there would be nothing wrong with it. You can say it in many way but at the end it like "I don't mind starbucks serve cola instead of coffee if it is tastier"

If you remodel the interior of the a ship and replace all the wood with the new one, is the same ship still the same ship? Yes, but only when you look at it from the outside.

If all of their members has been replaced and they start making rap instead of rock, Is ACDC still ACDC band? Yes, but only in name.

This isn’t an argument so save the energy. It isn’t about WAR, FF14, my point, or your point.

The thing is. FF14 has its own lore, much like most FF games in the franchise. Iconic things remain, but things are constantly changing to make the old feel new. It’s literally what they’ve been doing with almost every game. Even the names of spells change. Blizzard/blizzara/blizzaga from Blizzard/2/3 and back again.

It’s not about right or wrong here…it just is. Did you play FF7 remake? Almost unrecognizable from the original even though it’s titled REMAKE. I loved the original FF7 and was looking forward to a remake, with current graphics… I was sorely disappointed, but committed to it nonetheless. The game isn’t horrible for what it is, just completely different lore then expected. It’s just what SE does whether we like it or not.

It's not about right or wrong here...it just you love this, lore and everyone else who didn't think so be damned.

Let me paint the whole picture for you on that one, though you probably already know/knew at some point.

DRK had abilities similar to Warrior that raised attack and lowered defense, with its class identifier skill Souleater coming in at level 30 granting +25acc and taking 10% of your total HP and converting it directly to damage dealt on both auto attacks and physical weapon skills. It basically had Blood Weapon to offset that.

Within the confines of its black magic capabilities, it excelled in Dark Magic skill, with minors in Elemental and Enfeebling skill. Dark Magic skill affected the Drain and Aspir series of spells, spells that drain HP or MP. It got earliest access to Aspir II and as far as I remember, exclusive access to Drain II and Drain III. Drain II/III allowed it to drain and add the absorbed amount to total HP, granting it temporary hit points. This looped back into making Souleater more effective.

It also had Dread Spikes, which are spikes that deal counter damage that have endrain on them, granting the DRK HP back for being attacked. Incredibly effective, but had a drained HP total effect that would cancel the buff rather shortly against anything dangerous. Damage resolution also happens first, so if the DRK takes lethal damage they don't drain it back after they are already dead, receiving the KO status.

This variation of DRK has been in FFXI online since 2002, so it's got a 19 year history, to be fair. There's people that've been playing this type of DRK for almost two decades, and for the die hards, FFXIV's is a pale imitation at best (though certainly relatively more sturdy).

But yeah, I agree, DRK overall is about lifesteal for big damage. That's why people frowned when it was introduced as a tank. The Drains and things from FFXI version were all there to augment its life steals.

Big Sadge there too, cause none of its lifesteals worked on undead monsters, and a lot of times were subject to Souleater resistance to prevent DRK based zergs cause it used to bypass all defenses.

And it isn't just XI. Tactics which have iconic DRK came out 5 years before XI and that make it over 2 decades.

*snip*

We used to ask for it but it was extremely exhausting when you have new DRK goes against it. Self Sacrifice for benefit could work. It just that the new DRK in hw treat it same way with people treat the idea of going to space as something that never work.

Look at superbolide.

Or you could make darkside reduce max hp cap by xxx and reduce damage taken by xxx as well as increase damage dealt by xxx or gain other benefit to compensated. But come to think about it wasn't there a tank that have high hp that could choose to sacrifice the increase hp effect and damage reduction effect they could have for damage in the past? in a sense, Deliverance was already provided a way to self sacrifice your hp for damage.

Real DRK could work and could have been fun as well as require player skill. It just that the real DRK trait has been given to WAR and new DRK in hw think it is a fine trade. Little did they know about the fact that dev was looking to turn D-A-R-K-K-N-I-G-H-T to edgy BERSERKER since back then.

Let me be clear here : I wasn't against WAR have good ability but it mustn't come at he cost of Real DRK have to lose it so WAR could have it.

[DaulBan]

snip

I'm just amazed people keep replying to you. Lyth started making freeform poetry using ability names to mock me once and I stopped replying out of second-hand embarrassment. What you're doing is somehow worse, and yet everyone seems determined to convince you you're wrong.

[Kabooa]

I'm just amazed people keep replying to you. Lyth started making freeform poetry using ability names to mock me once and I stopped replying out of second-hand embarrassment. What you're doing is somehow worse, and yet everyone seems determined to convince you you're wrong.

Hey, can it wait until my popcorn is done?

[AC9Breaker]

lmao and people say I'm a troll. I think saying Thrill of Battle is the same as TBN is a bigger troll haha.

[ninninin]

I'm just amazed people keep replying to you. Lyth started making freeform poetry using ability names to mock me once and I stopped replying out of second-hand embarrassment. What you're doing is somehow worse, and yet everyone seems determined to convince you you're wrong.

And so? Just because there're people believing I'm wrong that mean I have to be wrong? or do you believe lady blindfold is always right?

Beside, how about you look at yourself?
V

Yeah I don't think ANYONE asked for the Storm's Eye change bud. That's just SE doing weird stuff.

You came out then talk and leave so confidently without even check for the fact > https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/403250

I don't know if I'd describe Conva as being PLD's iconic ability bud.

What WAR have to do to get conva in ARR?

On that note, though, there's also little to no magic sword of vampirism/blood magic hoodoo in DRK's questlines. It's more about the psychology of it all, somewhat mirroring but still quite distinct from WAR's.

Why don't you replay DRK quest chain in stormblood then? and sorry if it still wasn't enough since we have a guy who you don't want me to remind you about trying to turn DRK to Gut from berserk manga.

Doesn't take much pretending, given its iterations as listed before came out in 2008 and 2012, and are a mere extension of Cecil's character itself, whereas XIV's came out in 2015.

I guess having https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...ul/Dissidia_NT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-TWuDWkfs0 must have been my imagination then?

That's 3... out of 12 games with a playable "Dark Knight". But, sure, let's pretend lifesteal is somehow long-historied and exclusive attachment to DRK, let alone more integral or prevalent than HP-sacrificing skills such that XIV's lifesteal capacities ought be exclusive to DRK (even though Warrior, historically, sees as much use of lifesteal and they're both outdone by any Black Magic casters in games where Drain is a player-accessible spell), while lifesteal itself has been given to many a character that has nothing in common with DRK...

Warrior see as much use of lifesteal you say? when?
FF1? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...(Final_Fantasy) None
FF3? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...al_Fantasy_III) None
FFXI? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...#Job_abilities None
FFX-2? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...al_Fantasy_X-2) None
FF Tactics Advance? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...actics_Advance) None
FF Tactics A2? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...or_(Tactics_A2) None
Dissidia Warrior is even more like Holy Knight as warrior of light. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...ight_(Dissidia) Still None

And guess what Dark Knight have life drain as it signature since ff tactic which came out in 1997 and that make it more than 2 decade long. Not long-historied at all isn't it.
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...night_(Tactics)
https://youtu.be/7K_uiYNxa1o?t=559
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...night_(Tactics)
https://youtu.be/7NQ-A4wOvVU?t=19 999 damage is the max damage in FF tactic. Can you show me how it get outdone by any Black Magic caster who gain access to drain spell?