How fitting

[phantomr23]

Who said WAR was being targeted? No one. You just made that up to fight for your point based on false information.

Two tanks got trashed for the sake of “balancing” WAR and DRK. That’s been said several times already so this comment is as pointless as your last post.

I’m an OG WAR talking about how my job changed for the worse. It’s an opinion piece, based on facts. You made a mistake…it’s ok, no one is perfect. You don’t have to defend your failed point…just let it go

Right, based in facts and you never said WAR was targeted. Except you opened by making this strange, simpering complaint that PLD has been heavily buffed to be the damage god and has everything when it patently has the least mitigation and is only slightly above WAR, then followed it up with misinformation about Heavensward raiding and a fundamental failure to comprehend any of the tanks on anything but the basest level. You can complain about tank design, I'll be right there with you, but to act so smug when you have absolutely no clue how any of the tanks - including your own class - work and seem unable to understand that WAR fills an incredibly useful niche as a bulky, straightforward wall is nothing short of comical. You quite literally managed to mess up basic potency knowledge earlier.

[A-Omega]

Another one I see…
-What have I said that’s fundamentally inaccurate? WAR was the OT pre Stormblood…You’re reaching.
-PLD- Sentinel, DV, Sheltron, PoA, a build in mitigation (shield), and add in AL, Rampart, and Reprisal. Only other tank close is GNB and he still falls short of PLD in that category. Again…facts.
-Broke down all my old skills, changes, role, but that definitely shows I don’t know my job. You’re reaching
-You come out with a lame and shallow attempt at throwing insults for what? You present no facts, just a goofy baseless and completely weak personal attack. You were better off calling my mother a nasty name then writing this comment.
You failed…feel free to try again tho

[ninninin]

Exactly. OG WAR was incredible to play. Pulling in Defiance then swapping to Deliverance was a true sign of a master at work. The excitement you felt when pulling wall to wall in dungeons and knowing you could handle whatever at any lvl was unique to only us. The lvl of skill it took to properly play WAR was an art you could take pride in.
Our entire kit revolves around or dps window and stale game play until then. Boring 1,2,3 game play. No more OGCDs to make you feel like living carnage. I’m glad I saw this post. Someone gets it.

Thank for showing HOW WAR PLAYER IS NOW ADDICTED TO DRK'S LIFE DRAIN TRAIT beyond help.

[ninninin]

No no I wasn't attacking you mate just thought it was funny tis all...but since we are incline

If i was to attack you as you say I would state your delusion of an old game have transferred here
If I was to attack you I would say PLD sacrifices mit for dmg but still out dps/mit WAR/drk crazy I know
If I was to attack you yah yah more facts that your not going to listen to.

Note I stated I read the whole form and then made my remark your not special but since we are kicking and screaming

What is a Real DRK is it players from FF11 or FF4 cause none of them matter in the since of they should be what drk is in ff14

If you haven't notice Yoshi P and the gang have been trying to mix it up
They take inspiration from other media not copy them word for word and if you actually watch berserk you would know all that drk has in common with Guts is a 2nd sword
Also if your a real DRK main why dont I see you on the mega thread hmmm, we could us your fire over there instead of harassing a WAR main who is trying to speak
See this is what we call suppression I too want drk to be better but why are we jumping on a WAR when the fight is with SE
Seeing you like this make me think back to SB when ever Drk main was crying about not having what WAR had with IR

Guess what you got. And that's from a REAL DRK in you words.
Yeah Haft of us played the oldies you not a special snowflake and that element really doesn't matter to anyone or SE

You state WAR has the highest dps on diamond but thats 1 count it 1 piece of content wanna look at the bigger picture here
Note IDC about WAR dmg but stating WAR had a 1 WIN to 7 other L s is like narrow minded

Im truly curious is this you main account and just spitting back what others have said or a troll account?

Ok Im done Omega I apologize for one of our kind if its really a drk causing such ruckus truly we all aren't so quick to jump *maybe a dragoon main*
Sorry I forgot to use my head

Changing subject now aren't we?

And It seem DRK who been here long enough knew who I'm while you have no idea.

before you start suspect people trolling You might want to look in the mirror to see who keep support OP that keep saying "PLD is god" and Clemency is the best heal in game.

The difference between Clemency and NF is that if you using Clemency its usually when everything has gone wrong.
When you us NF its to stay alive even when something is going right.
If you gotta us clemency to stay alive while everything is going right well... probably shouldn't tank anymore.

Crazy how I mention damage and it’s literally how WAR survives…”You’re whining about not being the best”.
Also everyone…”I have the best heal in the game but if I use it, I lose damage” -_-
Funny how that works out isn’t it.

Yeah, if aodhan could agree with you then I think it is perfectly fine. It's PLD's turn to be the next poster boy any way.

Another one I see…
-What have I said that’s fundamentally inaccurate? WAR was the OT pre Stormblood…You’re reaching.
-PLD- Sentinel, DV, Sheltron, PoA, a build in mitigation (shield), and add in AL, Rampart, and Reprisal. Only other tank close is GNB and he still falls short of PLD in that category. Again…facts.
-Broke down all my old skills, changes, role, but that definitely shows I don’t know my job. You’re reaching
-You come out with a lame and shallow attempt at throwing insults for what? You present no facts, just a goofy baseless and completely weak personal attack. You were better off calling my mother a nasty name then writing this comment.
You failed…feel free to try again tho

oh, boy....

[Lyth]

As someone who was a WAR main in ARR, I can tell you for a fact that even back then, WAR was not exclusively OT. Not in good groups, at least. The main advantage of a PLD MT was if you were planning on skipping forced swaps using Hallowed cheese so that you could run a solo tank comp. But for the most part, a lot of the PLD MT mindset came out of ignorance of what was optimal (I mean, when we started out, people were debating about Parry being good for tanking, come on). A lot of that was already starting to change by Final Coil (WAR MT was preferred in 7p T13 clears), if it wasn't stamped out in Gordias.

And in Heavensward, it's worth remembering that WAR gained stacks from RI and Vengeance, so they were part of WAR's triple cleave opener/burst. It made sense for WAR to be tanking during those portions rather than let those cooldowns be burned for offense alone. Even in a fight like A12S which is very much designed for DRK's toolkit, I would still much sooner take advantage of WAR's cooldowns with intelligent swaps than burn DPS on DADM. And if there was no NIN in the group, forget it. You can unchained pull into the first TB swap, I won't be caught dead using PS. Crater is right. What you wrote is revisionist history.

Either way, I'm struggling to see what the main point of this thread is.

If it's about damage, it's worth noting that tank damage output has a lot less impact across the board. And if you look closely, there is relatively little variation in damage output between jobs in the same role. That's deliberate. WAR was a dps powerhouse in previous expansions not only because were they the highest damage tank, but because you could also do competitive damage in relation to real DPS players. That second point is the critical part.

Now, even if you're the 'big damage tank', it's not going to be by anything much. And the 'big damage healer' is probably going to be on par with you. You're just fighting over last place, if that's the hill that you want to die on.

If it's about self-healing, I'm not sure what the issue is. WAR has amazing lifesteal. So much so, that Holmgang should be the 'fight for your life' invuln, rather than Living Dead. I'm not sure why Clemency is entering the discussion at all. Players dislike situational actions because you can't swap them out for situationally appropriate alternatives. It's nice that Clemency can be clutch, but I wouldn't begrudge PLD players wanting to make it more consistently useful, possibly through procs or changes to resource costs (perhaps stick it on the Oath Gauge and make block procs act as a swiftcast?)

If you wanted to make WAR's defensives more interesting, the best way to do this is to just focus in on the lifesteal theme. Just change it so that overhealing gives you temporary HP up to some maximum total, and double down on the theme by replacing any vanilla %DR or bubble shield cooldowns with temporary HP boosting effects. The main thing that historically made WAR interesting was lining up your offensives with your defensive moveset. Might as well line up your burst for big lifesteal and big HP.

If it's about losing actions to gain new ones, everyone has this problem. There's finite hotbar space. Short of an skill tree system like Warcraft's or a dev team that's quick to make action changes, you'll always have some degree of frustration over the reworks. Especially since they generally only revise things for expansion launches and you're stuck talking to a wall for the next two years until the next release.

The main reason why you notice a decline in power on WAR is because the most of the things that made WAR mandatory were addressed. Remember 100% uptime buffs like Slashing Down? Gone. Remember how certain people used to insist that PLD and DRK had to have clunky GCD stances that cost dps to swap because poor old WAR lost HP on stance swaps? Stances are gone as well. Bring the player.

I am watching the reactions to this new benchmark WAR action with interest, though. Shake it off was the first action to be reworked mid expansion on player demand. I'll be even more amused if you manage to get an action reworked before it's even released. That's some dedicated catering right there. New action: I WIN punch. Kills the boss instantly and even sheaths your weapon for you.

The reason why WAR is so unsatisfying is because players keep demanding more power for less effort. Gauge management is frustrating. Crit/DH RNG is frustrating. And you wonder why you don't get any satisfaction. Satisfaction comes from effort.

[ninninin]

Could have won the medal, if it weren't for that another attempt to give DRK's Life Drain identity away.


"HW"

Someone else : "This isn't drk!"

You : "It's a fun, well-balanced job. "

"SHB"

You : "This isn't drk!!!!"

Someone else : ""It's a fun, well-balanced job. "

Karma : HI

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Either way, I'm struggling to see what the main point of this thread is.

Same... I fail to see or comprehend what the point of all of this hostile back and forth is. I made a guess and my post was ignored, to continue the back and forth hostility, so I must have either missed the mark and my guess was wrong, or.. plot twist.. the point is the back and forth hostility.

[...]Just change it so that overhealing gives you temporary HP up to some maximum total,[...]

and I kind of like this idea. I agree that Warrior may as well go more into the temporary maximum HP increase theme... but, I disagree with the "LifeSteal" effect for Warrior. I think that the convert damage into HP self-heal theme should be most prevalent with Dark Knight, while Warrior aught to pair the maximum HP increase effect with a focus on instant self-heal abilities, such as Equilibrium.

[Vatom]

Yes, yes, just give support OP despite what he show. Pretty sure anyone can see how right you are by now. Kiddo. You talking about respect make me want to puke.

Well seems I've wasted my time, no questions answer, no big reveal. Puke cute and I'm the kiddo. Allow me to end this lovely banter we go going on you know.. for the kids

Same... I fail to see or comprehend what the point of all of this hostile back and forth is. I made a guess and my post was ignored, to continue the back and forth hostility, so I must have either missed the mark and my guess was wrong, or.. plot twist.. the point is the back and forth hostility.

I Apologize seems this went on further then needed, obviously just running in circles here

[ninninin]

no questions answer, no big reveal.

That's what you get when you make me feel like I "wasting my time"

[Shurrikhan]

Same... I fail to see or comprehend what the point of all of this hostile back and forth is.

To (over)simplify: a Warrior main is angry about his job being gutted to a shallow husk.

I made a guess and my post was ignored, to continue the back and forth hostility, so I must have either missed the mark and my guess was wrong, or.. plot twist.. the point is the back and forth hostility.

Haven't been watching this thread much, but I'm sorry to hear that. It may have been lost among the sea of other, (much angrier) Au Ra faces. For others who had trouble finding it, see the snip below:

For the most part, my thoughts were on how to differentiate the means of self-heal and self-support effects, between Warrior and Dark Knight.

any way, that said... how about Warrior has instant heals and increase maximum HP as its focus, such as Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, and Dark Knight has magical barriers and convert damage dealt into HP as its focus...while, only Paladin has a literal heal spell, along with a pure damage reduction focus, whether the Paladin block attacks, or could even either have more damage reduction abilities than the other tanks, or be able to use damage reduction abilities more often than other tanks.

this makes three of the Tanks have different means of self-heal, instant-heal ability, heal spell, and damage-into-HP conversion, and have different self-support, maximum HP increase(along with instant-heal), magic barriers, and direct damage reduction.

while, the actual way in which this could function as "unique identity", would be either to make all Tanks have 0 abilities, spells, and/or WeaponSkills that do not match their given theme(I think this is a bad idea, but.. eh.), and is along the lines of a different theme, or make it some thing like each Tank has five or some number of actions that match their theme, and only one or two actions that do not match their theme.

That said, I'm having trouble understanding your meaning/intent with your last comment. I don't think anyone is asking that a given capacity, especially a vague or generic one, be entirely exclusive to their job.

To start from the least demanding common denominator, most seem to want the tank jobs to feel distinct when actually playing them, without necessarily requiring that they look distinct on paper.

(Personally, that's the camp I fall under, as I feel that capacity differences, for instance, are ultimately less impactful than differences in decision-making or playflow, even if they may look more distinct "on paper".)

Others would caution that some portion of capacity, or the way they reach that capacity, may need to be mutually exclusive if we want those jobs' feeling of play to differ as above. But that's already pushing towards a specific camp, rather than a common consensus. Others would be happy enough with more eclectic ways by which a job may distinguish itself.

For the time being, we have a few different traditions among the long-standing XIV jobs: one from XIV, one from XI, and another as some sort of awkward averaging of previous franchise iterations (in which case, say, Warrior is highly tied to "Knight"... and therefore rather muddied into/with Paladin, Dark Knight is hardly distinguishable from "Mystic Knight", "Warmage", etc., etc.).

Personally, I'm of the camp that XIV is XIV, and shouldn't short itself just to retain alignment with previous iterations, which are themselves rather jumbled or painfully barebone. But that is, again, one of multiple camps, just as are those who would seem to find XI iterations sacrosanct, and likely any movie an inherent failure if/when --in taking advantage of the new medium and opportunities presented to it-- it differs from its source work.

I disagree with the "LifeSteal" effect for Warrior. I think that the convert damage into HP self-heal theme should be most prevalent with Dark Knight, while Warrior aught to pair the maximum HP increase effect with a focus on instant self-heal abilities, such as Equilibrium.

Personally, I... don't see why, to be honest. Warrior has, in XIV, always been a more centered around its percentile life-steal (or, "healing for a portion of damage dealt", if one doesn't wish to bias the term towards vampirism) than DRK has been, in keeping with WAR's "the best defense is a good offense" sort of theme.

In either case, though, "lifesteal" is an incredibly generic effect, just as would be "damage-absorbing effects" or "healing abilities". I think what matters most is the sense and style of agency among/between the two.

For instance, as a WAR, I expect to be kind of pulled into the flow of combat, and then I simply live or die by that, whereas when playing as a DRK I expect to have a bit more choice or deliberateness in my actions. To use lifesteal mechanics or their tie-ins as example, as a Warrior I'd expect lifesteal to be appended to a wider variety of attacks, and therefore less selective, but also to be integral to other granular areas, like maximum HP, or an oGCD that deals damage based on my current HP (and therefore benefits from those maximum HP increases), etc., etc. As a DRK, I'd expect it to charge something I could tap into very deliberately, for less throughput per minute but perhaps a bit more when it really counted.