How fitting

[A-Omega]

All that typing and dude completely missed the point. It’s not about the damage. It’s about how much we lost for nothing in return. It’s about how every new skill (regardless of typos) is a weak rework of a skill we had before SE decided to steal it away, only to return it at 70+.
I don’t waste my timing being like this guy. I don’t jump on other people’s post in a desperate attempt to discredit their issue (especially when it’s grounded in fact). PLD comes up because it’s the elephant in the room. They are what I wish WAR was. For every skill they lost, they gained something better and much more. They even went from weakest to 1st/2nd tank dps, no matter who tries to alter the truth for their own personal gain.
Seriously, how can you argue with facts? If I was so completely off bases, why would the devs rush a soft fix? Easy answer that doesn’t require astrophysicist IQ…I’m closer to right then certain people want to admit.

[A-Omega]

Dps loss lol. If you need Clemency in raid settings or casual content, you were about to have no dps because you were about to die and saved your own skin. Equilibrium serves more as a CD since we have less of those as well, but I’m sure you knew that already.
Let’s not forget HG. Why worry about healing when you can completely void all incoming damage. Again, enjoy reaching for those straws. Eventually you’ll be able to stretch something well enough to not sound ridiculous.

[ninninin]

All that typing and dude completely missed the point. It’s not about the damage. It’s about how much we lost for nothing in return. It’s about how every new skill (regardless of typos) is a weak rework of a skill we had before SE decided to steal it away, only to return it at 70+.
I don’t waste my timing being like this guy. I don’t jump on other people’s post in a desperate attempt to discredit their issue (especially when it’s grounded in fact). PLD comes up because it’s the elephant in the room. They are what I wish WAR was. For every skill they lost, they gained something better and much more. They even went from weakest to 1st/2nd tank dps, no matter who tries to alter the truth for their own personal gain.
Seriously, how can you argue with facts? If I was so completely off bases, why would the devs rush a soft fix? Easy answer that doesn’t require astrophysicist IQ…I’m closer to right then certain people want to admit.

And you still don't explain how did you come up with the mind set that PLD shouldn't be allow to do more dps than you even just a little? Why your complain sound like PLD doesn't deserve this changes? How about try to gather more info before calling other tank a god?

For someone who claim he doesn't waste time you really took your time explaining how did you come up with these misunderstanding.

Since were correcting simple mistakes…PLD has an instant heal. Clemency. 1200 potency that restores 50% of your own health, even when you don’t cast it on yourself. In case you didn’t know…WHM Cure II is 700 potency, same with AST Benefic II. Both HEALERS main primary heal. Somehow neglecting to mention that seems way worse then a last word typo, but ehhh….find whatever straws you can to grasp at.

Dps loss lol. If you need Clemency in raid settings or casual content, you were about to have no dps because you were about to die and saved your own skin. Equilibrium serves more as a CD since we have less of those as well, but I’m sure you knew that already.
Let’s not forget HG. Why worry about healing when you can completely void all incoming damage. Again, enjoy reaching for those straws. Eventually you’ll be able to stretch something well enough to not sound ridiculous.

Look at you. Let me ask other warrior here then : Any of you thinking that Clemency right now is better than Equilibrium?

Why worry about healing when hallowed ground exist? because it have a very very long recast time. So long that you may get to use it only 1 or 2 times per raid fight on a few tank buster. Holmgang wasn't bad because how short recast Nascent is. Do you ever have idea at all how much Nascent Flash could heal?

[A-Omega]

1st off this is my post and you are renting space. The waste of time is you arguing PLD should be were it’s at and I’m wrong for feeling otherwise. News flash…I never said that. I want to be as complete as PLD. I would break down all PLD skills the way I did WAR, but you clearly struggle with paragraphs. That would definitely explain why PLD is god, but you completely missed the point…safe to say, you’d miss that point as well. That would be me wasting time.
Triggered…who, me? Not at all. I’ve been playing this game since 1.0. WAR has always been considered the OT and I wear my role proudly. While PLD soaks the damage, I’m his/her back up. That’s how a solid raid party is formed.
I enjoy a good debate about FF seeing how I’ve given 11 years of my life to it. Come back when you ACTUALLY HAVE a case worth the debate. Oh yea, leave the insults and stick to opinions/facts. Any other way, you sound childish and outta touch with the topic.

[ninninin]

Yeah dude it seem that 11 years have left you unable to understand even the least about the current situation. Don't go anywhere now let us see how other warrior that haven't gone senile think about Clemency.

[A-Omega]

My problem with warrior is how it feels like a gutted drk ... its to similar in playstyle and yes there is obviously differences but the base idea remains very similar

Lets start with this, both classes have a dmg buff they somewhat juggle, both in a very simplistic way
War has 4 combo skills, Drk has 3 and both have a 2 step aoe ... this is pretty much the same across all tanks and is fine but other similar things are not fine
Wars center arround the idea of Inner Releases and Fell cleave as its the main burst, for drk its virtually the same.

Inner Release = Delirium
Fell Cleave = Blood spiller
Decimate = Quietus

So its comes down to what else is there ... and this is where war has a problem

Onslaught which is a dmg down unless its used during inner Release
Upheaval which is pretty good all around

What does Drk have to make up for those?
Edge of Darkness/Shadow
Flood of Darkness/Shadow
Salted Earth
Plunge
Carve and Spit
Abyssal Drain
Living Shadow

So both tanks try to get as many Bloodspiller/Cleaves out as possible and align it with a raid window but wars idea is like "omg i can spam my most powerful move and have it crit and direct hit" but now Drk has the very same buff (yes it does not crit and direct but the idea is the same)

Which makes war play ... slow, there's hardly any weaving, War feels slow and not as satisfying. I was war main from 2.0 till 4.5 and it was my first job to 80 ... now? My tank prio goes Pld>Drk>Gnb>War. All tanks have a fun mechanic or toolkit ... wars is Inner Release and if i want that ill play drk which has more ogcd.

Maybe its just me but it bothers me that the tank buster mitigation war has ... which is Raw Intuition but its usually not worth to use as nascent flash would heal you for more which makes Raw Intuition useless you might as well merge them or upgrade into them via trait.

The War toolkit needs to change, or we accept that its basically a starter tank with less buttons and no own identity.

Exactly. OG WAR was incredible to play. Pulling in Defiance then swapping to Deliverance was a true sign of a master at work. The excitement you felt when pulling wall to wall in dungeons and knowing you could handle whatever at any lvl was unique to only us. The lvl of skill it took to properly play WAR was an art you could take pride in.
Our entire kit revolves around or dps window and stale game play until then. Boring 1,2,3 game play. No more OGCDs to make you feel like living carnage. I’m glad I saw this post. Someone gets it.

[A-Omega]

WARs theme was violence in flesh. The crazier the situation a WAR was in, the more he/she thrived. Damage was everything seeing how our life depended on it. Damage was literally our mitigation since we didn’t have natural mitigation (tank stance mitigation) and relied on the health return from whatever we hit. So yes, any loss of damage is troubling in a world controlled by damage. The importance of damage for WAR was doubled down on when we got a dps stance. Ironically enough, that is still true…just not until lvl 76 of 80 from the original lvl 8. Let’s not forget every skill we got are reworks of old skills or marginally useless along with a huge chunk of our abilities disappearing.

I see to many people saying, “Your mad you aren’t top”…we were never top. WAR was the OT. PLD had defensive and we complimented the lack of damage with our own in most high end content. The issue is, we lost way to much with nothing in return. Damage=heals. We lost our heals when bloodbath was taken, but the damage didn’t fall off (yet). Then we lost the damage and more heals (they even gave DRK a version of our damage style). All the loses with nothing to fill in the huge gap left behind. Had we fell to 4th but had an engaging play style, this wouldn’t be a topic at all. DNCs have low damage and the job is still super fun (even tho my Roe looks goofy doing the dance steps). I don’t see how so many people are so confused by that. Maybe it’s my wording or their lack of play time with the OG WAR. Maybe it’s a symptom of the “one gains, another loses” that’s been happening lately. Whatever it is…WAR has changed in a super boring way and lost its identity long ago. Anyway, here’s to hoping the devs work some magic like they did MCH.

[Vatom]

Wow Congratulation. *Clap* *Clap* It seem you have been reward after stalking me this far.

Seriously tho. I mention WAR beat PLD dps in diamond EX but did I say it always beat PLD elsewhere? The different between their dps outside of diamond ex is minimal but defensive kit of WAR is always far superior than PLD

No no I wasn't attacking you mate just thought it was funny tis all...but since we are incline

If i was to attack you as you say I would state your delusion of an old game have transferred here
If I was to attack you I would say PLD sacrifices mit for dmg but still out dps/mit WAR/drk crazy I know
If I was to attack you yah yah more facts that your not going to listen to.

Note I stated I read the whole form and then made my remark your not special but since we are kicking and screaming

What is a Real DRK is it players from FF11 or FF4 cause none of them matter in the since of they should be what drk is in ff14

If you haven't notice Yoshi P and the gang have been trying to mix it up
They take inspiration from other media not copy them word for word and if you actually watch berserk you would know all that drk has in common with Guts is a 2nd sword
Also if your a real DRK main why dont I see you on the mega thread hmmm, we could us your fire over there instead of harassing a WAR main who is trying to speak
See this is what we call suppression I too want drk to be better but why are we jumping on a WAR when the fight is with SE
Seeing you like this make me think back to SB when ever Drk main was crying about not having what WAR had with IR

Guess what you got. And that's from a REAL DRK in you words.
Yeah Haft of us played the oldies you not a special snowflake and that element really doesn't matter to anyone or SE

You state WAR has the highest dps on diamond but thats 1 count it 1 piece of content wanna look at the bigger picture here
Note IDC about WAR dmg but stating WAR had a 1 WIN to 7 other L s is like narrow minded

Im truly curious is this you main account and just spitting back what others have said or a troll account?

Ok Im done Omega I apologize for one of our kind if its really a drk causing such ruckus truly we all aren't so quick to jump *maybe a dragoon main*
Sorry I forgot to use my head

[Vatom]

The difference between Clemency and NF is that if you using Clemency its usually when everything has gone wrong.
When you us NF its to stay alive even when something is going right.
If you gotta us clemency to stay alive while everything is going right well... probably shouldn't tank anymore.

[Shurrikhan]

I never said anything was pointless, that's just your assumption. I just pointed out you're gonna have the same people come in here and complain that it's boring and same-y all over again. Rinse and repeat, give something new, someone always comes complaining, changes are never good enough for people.

Which can only really be construed either of two ways: either complaints are irrelevant, or positive change (by which to reduce complaints or stimulate perceived quality, from which basis complaints generally will or will not follow) are impossible.

The first comes off as "the devs shouldn't listen to their players; they're nonsensical and/or absolutely unappeasable".
The second, as some sort of blasé fatalism.

Why should I care that, yes, complaints will still exist in numbers greater than 0 even after I'd have gotten what I want? I'll have addressed what I dislike, and it'd have come at no cost to anyone else -- unless they have a specific preference, with no change to capacity, for hitting only that one action (Holy Spirit) for the majority of Requiescat.

Paladin serves to refute your claim of "And how would we even know, when not a single job has been changed for the more nuanced/involved/creative, only the opposite?"

The playflow changes between StB and ShB Paladin are (1) Atonement (which will almost never act as anything but an even-numbered RA combo in greater rotation) and (2) the incredibly rare case where the added potency per Requisite phase from Confiteor in a given length of boss jump will slightly overperform keeping it synced per normal macrorotation (e.g., in alignment with Fight or Flight).

Somehow that's fundamentally different, but Requiescat and Inner Release are fundamentally the same, let alone 4.3 Warrior and 5.x Warrior in their macrorotation?

it's rotation becomes very nuanced depending on fights. But guess that still won't be good enough for you, huh?

I never said its fight-specific alignments didn't appeal to me. I've not even called Requiescat itself dull.

I literally said, only, that "While I like the back and forth, I'll admit HS spam is... really dull for those 10 seconds of Req," and, off the cuff, that I wouldn't mind if there was more going on under the Req buff itself than just HS/HC spam and a trailing Confiteor. Hell, most of my comment that you've gone so far out of your way to, what, call painfully naïve(?) was specifically talking about when the skill was introduced in StB, and how I had at the time hoped it'd fit or, later, been expanded upon.

when PLD was a strict rotation, yet while strict in some respects, now has the most complex rotation out of all of the tanks in optimisation

I know. I've never disagreed with that. What part of "HS spam" has anything to do with any other part of PLD's rotation than... the HS spam? My concern is not the number of globals under Req. It is solely on how repetitively those globals play out.

Paladin need to recoup it's mana otherwise failing to do so may result in failing to gain the Requiescat buff, by having MP under 80% of maximum

Again, I know. It's in the damned tooltip.

And no because when the buff window is open you spam fell cleave 6 times over

Inner Release lasted 7 GCDs at the time, if taking even 3.8% Skill Speed, which any Warrior would. Yes, it could only do 6 Fell Cleaves, but that meant it actually had a preferred alignment in one's rotation to include a Storm's Path, as to additionally afford (as they were not at the time free) an Onslaught and Upheaval.

Admittedly, that constraint functioned very differently from Req's 80+% MP requirement, in that it provided additional space for optimization rather than fewer rotational choices for viable use, but I'm curious why you'd ignore that and harp on Req's little extra feature. Granted, I still don't know why you're telling me about it, as I've not called them the same; only you have. I only said I dislike consecutive spam, especially when there are, and have been, other options.

So end goal is fundamentally the same, spam x button for y times while buff is active.

And, what, the intermediate goals just don't matter?

Which is it? Is PLD not fundamentally the same, because it adds further points of engagement which can be capitalized upon for unique capacities? Or is it fundamentally the same, and thus not "really" any more complex?

__________________________

Again, it's very simple:

I'd prefer PLD to be less spammy (e.g., during Req).

Technically, I'd also like Req's MP requirement to be removed or made more lenient, since it only reduces its available points of viable use rather than adding any depth to its actual execution, but that's a separate issue.

I'd prefer WAR to be less spammy (e.g., during IR).
I'd prefer DRK to be less spammy (e.g., during Delirium).

That's it. It's a personal preference.

By all means, feel free to again conflate whatever number of iterations of each of those jobs as "fundamentally" the same. Feel free to call that preference naïve, in that complaints would still exist even if each were made less spammy. But that's all there is to it.

I want X, and you're... somehow opposed to X because it's not a comprehensive solution to something I'd never intended it to be? ...Whatever. You do you.