Red Mage: Potential adjustments

[Kalaam]

I can confirm playing RDM for 2 expansions has gotten boring.

[Rongway]

For one, different people have different ideas on what's solid or fun. Everyone's different and there's no pleasing them all, even if they all have similar levels of passion or interest for the same job.

Yes, you're absolutely right about individual differences and preferences. But let's put that aside because individual differences aren't something we can do anything about, and it ultimately doesn't change the merits of this exchange:

Jobs that are in a good place don't need to be changed every expansion.

keeping a job the same for a long time will make it boring for most, some change is required to maintain interest and because everyone's different some people will like those changes and some will not.

Keeping a job the same for a long time will make it boring for whom? The people who want change. And who will not like the changes? The people who liked the job the way it was. This begs the question, "Why weren't the people who want change playing a different job in the first place?"

If the answer is, "But they were playing a different job," then why did the job need to change to appeal to them? They already had other jobs they wanted to play instead. "So other people can enjoy the job too." Not everyone has to enjoy every job. The whole reason we have multiple jobs is because it's assumed not everyone is going to like any given job.

If the answer is, "They were playing it because they like it," then they will continue to like it until they decide they don't like it anymore, and then there are twenty other jobs they can play.

And so I stand by my point. If a job has no glaring flaws, it doesn't need to change at every expansion.

Right now, it seems like we have fairly widespread agreement that RDM's AoE mode is irreconcilably flat. Because it's just (1a/1b > 2) spam until it's time to (3) spam. Change that.

However, in single target, where lie the devs' primary interests in preserving balance and ensuring fun, RDM is a sound job.

"RDM is boring."
So play a less boring job. And if someone has a problem with me telling someone who is bored with a job to play a different job: there is no universe in which "play something else" is an inappropriate response to "this is boring."

Besides some improvements to AoE, RDM doesn't need any adjustments that could be better served by playing something that isn't RDM.

When it comes to a new expansion in particular they need selling points and a fresh coat of paint on a stale job is a good one.

They don't need to change every single job to sell each expansion. The expansions sell for their new jobs, new locations, and new story. In fact if you don't buy the expansion, you'll still get the changes that they made to the jobs, up to the old cap level that you still have access to.

But besides this, making changes to every single job for the next expansion quickly becomes an unwieldy development task. We're at 20 jobs now. They cannot continue to add new jobs in the future if they spend too much time revamping old jobs. If they want to continue to add new jobs, they need to start leaving the good jobs alone. We've already seen cuts made to many areas of the game because they wanted to spend the dev time elsewhere. Would you like them to spend time modifying existing jobs that people already enjoy playing at the cost of not having any new jobs in one of the expansions? I would rather they add new jobs and leave the good ones alone.

[KaerisKlyne]

I have nothing of value to add except to echo Rongway's post above because it's extremely correct.

[Kalaam]

Keeping a job the same for a long time will make it boring for whom? The people who want change. And who will not like the changes? The people who liked the job the way it was. This begs the question, "Why weren't the people who want change playing a different job in the first place?"


If the answer is, "They were playing it because they like it," then they will continue to like it until they decide they don't like it anymore, and then there are twenty other jobs they can play.

Well, as I said earlier, I have been getting bored of RDM in ShB despite it being one of my favorite classes. Change doesn't mean doing something entirely different. What I want, not speaking for others, is for high level red mage to feel like a proper evolution of level 50 RDM. Right now it plays basically the same, no interresting new mechanic to manage or play around with.
Also the argument "well play something else" is stupid. I love red mage, I want to keep playing it. But as it is now, it started to feel stale. So I want it to become more enjoyable. Who are you to tell me to go play something else and shut up?

[Tulzscha]

Keeping a job the same for a long time will make it boring for whom?

Everyone, eventually. Just a matter of time.

...there are twenty other jobs they can play.

"RDM is boring."
So play a less boring job. And if someone has a problem with me telling someone who is bored with a job to play a different job: there is no universe in which "play something else" is an inappropriate response to "this is boring."

And if they don't want to? Should everyone else just go play a different job or game so something you like can stay the same?

Just look at the dozens of SMN threads in these forums. There are lots of people who love SMN and want to play SMN and have completely different ideas of what SMN should be and how it should change and why it should stay the same. Thing is there's no right answer, just a bunch of opinions.

It may not be inappropriate to tell the bored players to play something else as it certainly is an option but it is ignorant.

They don't need to change every single job to sell each expansion.

I never said they did. A few certain jobs that need it, sure. A job that hasn't seen any changes for a couple expansions, maybe. Changes don't need to be complete reworks, they could be something like the AoE improvements you suggested or as small as a fancy new 2 minute cooldown. Regardless people like getting shiny new toys, that's the point I was making.

They cannot continue to add new jobs in the future if they spend too much time revamping old jobs. If they want to continue to add new jobs, they need to start leaving the good jobs alone. We've already seen cuts made to many areas of the game because they wanted to spend the dev time elsewhere. Would you like them to spend time modifying existing jobs that people already enjoy playing at the cost of not having any new jobs in one of the expansions? I would rather they add new jobs and leave the good ones alone.

If FFXIV continues to see growth they could hire more devs to handle everything. Cuts will always happen no matter what that's just part of the business. That aside when it comes to new jobs vs modifying existing jobs... personally I'm leaning towards the latter, I like the jobs that I play and don't mind them changing things up every so often to a degree. Job aesthetic and identity is important to me so I tend to pick a couple I like and stick to them. That's just me.

[Shurrikhan]

If that were true Monk would never have been a problem.

Tbf, it wasn't a problem... until they went out of their way to break it, rather than polish it. Until then it was rough and/or undertuned, rather than an outright problem.

That puts RDM at about 38 actions per minute, which is probably within ±2 APM of seven of the other sixteen jobs. Considering that during about half of our GCDs we have to do a quick arithmetic calculation to decide whether to Veraero or Verthunder in addition to the normal buff and cooldown tracking that every job has to do, I think where we sit on the APM spectrum is fine.

Raw APM has almost never been a good indicator of pacing, though, let alone who is likely to be engaged by the job or how. When and in what way APM spikes or lulls is far more important than the average.

I agree with each of your rebuttals, however. Again, though, the useful lines of discussion here seem more likely aimed at HOW the sword usage ought to be presented (e.g., more than being merely a liabilities-added Foul equivalent) rather than one portion of eGCDs it ought to encapsulate, or what kind of additional thinking/engagement ought to go into the job's playflow rather than merely what technical-yet-generic mechanic out to be slapped atop the kit.

[Kalaam]

Tbf, it wasn't a problem... until they went out of their way to break it, rather than polish it. Until then it was rough and/or undertuned, rather than an outright problem.




Raw APM has almost never been a good indicator of pacing, though, let alone who is likely to be engaged by the job or how. When and in what way APM spikes or lulls is far more important than the average.

I agree with each of your rebuttals, however. Again, though, the useful lines of discussion here seem more likely aimed at HOW the sword usage ought to be presented (e.g., more than being merely a liabilities-added Foul equivalent) rather than one portion of eGCDs it ought to encapsulate, or what kind of additional thinking/engagement ought to go into the job's playflow rather than merely what technical-yet-generic mechanic out to be slapped atop the kit.

It is true that the sword for now feels a bit off sometimes. But after all, RDM is a caster first and the sword is kind of a side-weapon, the main one is the catalyst. (Which is why I hope for a job with the opposite balance someday). I kind of wish RDM was a bit more 50/50 between magic and swordplay, but it'd likely make it impossible to work in a lot of trial and raid mechanics where you need to either be melee or ranged to bait mechanics and stuff. It already feels awful when you have your combo ready have *have* to stick to range because of mechanics.

Also yeah, APM isn't that good of a measuring tool when 80% of those actions are the exact same 4 you cycle through (VerThunder/Fire/Aero/Stone and Jolt) since you've unlocked the job.

[ArianeEwah]

Ancient Magic Mastery[...]

This is most likely to happen and I would be totally okay with it.

SqEx has a history track of changing burst window timing to align with each other, usually 60s, 90s, 120s and 180s. RDM melee combo (burst) window is roughly every ~40s. Shortening it to ~30s, adding an additional melee combo overall seems like an appropriate approach. Whether this will make RDM more engaging/fun or not, may be another story.

[Shurrikhan]

Ancient Magic Mastery basically analagous to Lance Mastery so we can do Enchanted Combo > Verflare > Verholy+ > Scorch, or E.Combo > Verholy > Verflare+ > Scorch. This alone would put us 9~12 mana ahead of where we would be after each of our current combos (21 mana gained, minus the cost of an extra GCD during which we would have cast another spell anyway), plus guarantee both procs.

My main issue with this concept is that it's very backloaded, balancing our average B/W Mana Generation per minute around something our very first combo cannot benefit from.

Granted, if we had a simple change like higher resting B/W Mana, then... sounds decent. Dull, as it's just extending our combo and/or effectively removing B/W Mana choices, but decent.

[Gruntler]

It is true that the sword for now feels a bit off sometimes. But after all, RDM is a caster first and the sword is kind of a side-weapon, the main one is the catalyst.

Red Mage has been a caster first and melee-er as a side-deal since FF1. You never brought in a RDM to slash things, and its slashes were never, in the history of the franchise, a reason to bring them.

Once FF5 hit, RDM's identity as the machine-gun-caster-of-small-spells was solidified. This is the identity it's had since, and the one they used for FF14.

(Which is why I hope for a job with the opposite balance someday).

Absolutely, they should definitely make a rune fencer/templar/temple knight job.

They don't need to remove decades of identity to make RDM that job.

I kind of wish RDM was a bit more 50/50 between magic and swordplay, but it'd likely make it impossible to work in a lot of trial and raid mechanics where you need to either be melee or ranged to bait mechanics and stuff. It already feels awful when you have your combo ready have *have* to stick to range because of mechanics.

Exactly! RDM is already too tied to melee as it is, and encounter design has to literally be wrapped around it. When you get a fight where it doesn't fit, it feels awful. Making RDM MORE melee would only make those fights awful. Further, RDM doesn't want to be in a position where it's competing for a melee slot, that isn't good for us. Being a caster and being balanced around being that caster slot is a good place for us to be.

Also yeah, APM isn't that good of a measuring tool when 80% of those actions are the exact same 4 you cycle through (VerThunder/Fire/Aero/Stone and Jolt) since you've unlocked the job.

Yarp.