Each expansion I get hyped and also worried about more skills.

[ForteNightshade]

As things have been going, we all know they're not going to make the jobs more complicated. So, all things being the same regarding basic combos, I'd rather free up a few keybinds to actually add some interesting new abilities.

You're assuming we will get more actions to replace all they prune away when that likely isn't the case. Dragoon got four new abilities going into Shadowbringers: Coerthan Torment, High Jump, Raiden Thrust and Stardiver. Of those four, two are upgrades, one is a fairly pointless AoE combo extension and the last is only used every 30 seconds. It's incredibly unlikely they add more than this for Endwalker, thus combo consolidation results is losing five buttons for essentially one oGCD you'll press not even half as often.

Perhaps you won't find it boring to spam 1 and 2 endlessly but I certainly would. If I had any belief they'd actually add more complexity back to the jobs, or hell, even a whole new combo for Dragoon, I might be more on board with combo consolidation. Instead, I see it being more like Bard, Machinist and Warrior where my hotbars are just a barren wasteland of empty space. I'd rather just keep the combos as they are in that case.

[Ayuhra]

More buttons doesn't means more skill, look at AoE/Single Target variants. What's the decision behind "should I press X or Y?", the answer is always obvious if you know math and how the games works.
But more button can also means more execution skill. Compare MCH wildfire from HW/SB to Wildfire from ShB.

As far as I know, raiding in WoW is a gear check, not mechanic+dps check. Crusade classic was cleared a few days after release.
No matter if you press 1 at the same speed, players will have different outcomes based on their gear. Gear is easy to access in XIV.

People who find the button number tedious just don't have any button management skill.
It's up to them to better manage their hotbar, not to the others to reduce their fun.

Believe me if you were to spam 1, you would first be relieved but then bored really, really hard.

WoW and FFXIV are challenging in different ways.

If we had the WoW/ESO number of buttons in FFXIV this game would be easy. The choreography would become your main focus and that's something you can quickly get down.

If WoW had FFXIV's number of buttons with the odd 2 minute long rotation then that game would be absurdly hard.

I'm imagining doing something like Heroic Uu'nat, Harbinger of the Void with a Summoner rotation and it's giving me a migraine.

[Shurrikhan]

WoW and FFXIV are challenging in different ways.

If we had the WoW/ESO number of buttons in FFXIV this game would be easy.

Another "button count = complexity" implication?

Odd, then, that there's still far more cognitive load required from my favorite specs in WoW than any job here even with that lower button count -- all the more so when in contexts outside of XIV-standard striking-dummy-plus-DDR fights...

Similarly, I can imagine WoW having XIV amounts of buttons and, per XIV, being all the less capable of nuance or shifting priorities.

[Ayuhra]

Another "button count = complexity" implication?

Odd, then, that there's still far more cognitive load required from my favorite specs in WoW than any job here even with that lower button count -- all the more so when in contexts outside of XIV-standard striking-dummy-plus-DDR fights...

Similarly, I can imagine WoW having XIV amounts of buttons and, per XIV, being all the less capable of nuance or shifting priorities.

I don't think you read the entire comment chain that was a part of because I agree with you. It started with this:

I don't understand why more buttons necessarily means more skill?

If rotations ever DID get simplified they could put that skill requirement into, say, less choreographed encounter designs.

I mean World of WarCraft and Elder Scrolls online both have much simpler rotations than FFXIV with much fewer buttons but both games are widely considered harder than FFXIV.

In Burning Crusade Classic some classes have literally a one or two button rotation but some guilds are still struggling to down Magtheridon.

My point above was that if FFXIV dropped buttons but changed nothing else it very well could become too boring and easy. WoW with very long rotations and tons of buttons meanwhile would be so hard nobody would play it. It packs a lot of complexity into the buttons it has compared to FFXIV.

I mean WoW is a bit of a disaster right now in terms of overworld content and direction but it is still king in raid design.

[Waliel]

Which is why you set it up differently.

You would have a Hakaze(default)->Yukikaze button, a Jinpu(default)->Gekko button, a Shifu(default)->Kasha button, a Fuga(default)->Mangetsu button and an Oka button.

Pushing Hakaze would turn it into Yukikaze with the combo ring while also putting combo rings around Jinpu and Shifu. Pushing Jinpu or Shifu would turn them into their 3rd step while reverting Yukikaze back to Hakaze.

Exactly what I meant, though maybe it didn't come out as such.

[Nyarlha]

You're assuming we will get more actions to replace all they prune away when that likely isn't the case. Dragoon got four new abilities going into Shadowbringers: Coerthan Torment, High Jump, Raiden Thrust and Stardiver. Of those four, two are upgrades, one is a fairly pointless AoE combo extension and the last is only used every 30 seconds. It's incredibly unlikely they add more than this for Endwalker, thus combo consolidation results is losing five buttons for essentially one oGCD you'll press not even half as often.

Perhaps you won't find it boring to spam 1 and 2 endlessly but I certainly would. If I had any belief they'd actually add more complexity back to the jobs, or hell, even a whole new combo for Dragoon, I might be more on board with combo consolidation. Instead, I see it being more like Bard, Machinist and Warrior where my hotbars are just a barren wasteland of empty space. I'd rather just keep the combos as they are in that case.

They didn't add more because they couldn't add more. As I said multiple time, the devs have been clear that they try and keep the amount of buttons relatively the same from level cap to level cap. If they consolidate combos, they could still keep the same amount of buttons (which is THEIR STATED GOAL) while giving us more than 2 new extremely situational abilities.

[ForteNightshade]

They didn't add more because they couldn't add more. As I said multiple time, the devs have been clear that they try and keep the amount of buttons relatively the same from level cap to level cap. If they consolidate combos, they could still keep the same amount of buttons (which is THEIR STATED GOAL) while giving us more than 2 new extremely situational abilities.

If that were the case, why are jobs like Bard, Machinist and Warrior completely lacking in abilities? In fact, Bard lost more than it gained. Kind of throws a wrench in this whole theory of yours. Then you have White Mage who kept an ability like Fluid Aura that is completely worthless and Dark Knight whose new ability was a literal copy of Warrior's.

This idea we're going to get huge degrees of complexity and new innovations if combos are consolidated is simply unfounded. They could have done more with Shadowbringers but simply chose not to. Dragoon didn't have button bloat, and still doesn't even now. And yet they settled on giving it a pointless third AoE combo instead of something creative. So what makes you think that will suddenly change? Likewise, I'll cite Dark Knight again which was overhauled completely... into a pseudo-Warrior clone. This was their chance to do something unique with the job and they... dumbed it down. Nothing they have done since Stormblood suggests we're going to get anything remotely like you're assuming.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think you read the entire comment chain that was a part of because I agree with you. It started with this:

My point above was that if FFXIV dropped buttons but changed nothing else it very well could become too boring and easy. WoW with very long rotations and tons of buttons meanwhile would be so hard nobody would play it. It packs a lot of complexity into the buttons it has compared to FFXIV.

I mean WoW is a bit of a disaster right now in terms of overworld content and direction but it is still king in raid design.

Oh, I read the chain. It's simply that this part (underlined above) did not come across, especially when explicitly calling WoW's rotations "much simpler" regardless of the spec or job being compared. Such would then rely on (A) what is exclusively "rotation" considering that the term in WoW also includes priority order, shifts therein, and many other elements of playflow, and (B) which of the included elements/criteria therein are weighed higher.

Personally, even friggin Arms spec, under certain builds (Collateral-Merciless, in a predominantly AoE fight but with frequent add appearances, for instance), will have every bit as tight and complex of macrorotation as an optimized DRG. It just has both a lower button ceiling (though not necessarily even a lower effective button ceiling, at least by any more than 2) and a higher effective button floor (rather than all but 1 of your GCD skills being effectively non-choices for 9 out of every 10 GCDs).

Honestly, for raid design, I'd say XIV mostly gives WoW a run for its money, though I wish it was a little less centered on DDR alone. Its the more mixed-encounter content like dungeons (M+, in WoW's case) where WoW's higher effective button floor really shines by comparison.

[Ultimatecalibur]

If that were the case, why are jobs like Bard, Machinist and Warrior completely lacking in abilities? In fact, Bard lost more than it gained. Kind of throws a wrench in this whole theory of yours. Then you have White Mage who kept an ability like Fluid Aura that is completely worthless and Dark Knight whose new ability was a literal copy of Warrior's.

From what I can tell Bard maintained roughly the same number class/job of abilities between StB and ShB. It lost Foe Requiem and Misery's End (pretty much a useless ogcd) and replaced them with Shadowbite and Apex Arrow.

This idea we're going to get huge degrees of complexity and new innovations if combos are consolidated is simply unfounded. They could have done more with Shadowbringers but simply chose not to. Dragoon didn't have button bloat, and still doesn't even now. And yet they settled on giving it a pointless third AoE combo instead of something creative. So what makes you think that will suddenly change? Likewise, I'll cite Dark Knight again which was overhauled completely... into a pseudo-Warrior clone. This was their chance to do something unique with the job and they... dumbed it down. Nothing they have done since Stormblood suggests we're going to get anything remotely like you're assuming.

One thing you are not accounting for is that several of the redesigns were done in ways to allow for future growth. Most of those jobs will not require as much pruning to include new abilities.

[Shurrikhan]

They didn't add more because they couldn't add more. As I said multiple time, the devs have been clear that they try and keep the amount of buttons relatively the same from level cap to level cap. If they consolidate combos, they could still keep the same amount of buttons (which is THEIR STATED GOAL) while giving us more than 2 new extremely situational abilities.

Yes and no. The button cap is important, but consider also what's being given, and in place of what. A lot of the times it's less a matter of having a capped capacity as just a lack of understanding of the job kits being changed or foresight as to how those changes would affect play.

Take Monk for example. In removing Fracture and Touch of Death, they killed Monk's ability to avoid positional requirements n times per 18|30 seconds, only to then have to go back and return that capacity via Role Actions that do not add to or fit job identity like True North and, later, Riddle of Earth. We lost more integral actions that better rewarded understanding of a given fight and provided useful rotational flexibility just to get... bland situationals that are available only much later in the experience.

Take Dragoon. In making its combo longer --rather than the two Dragon skills having any bankable effects, or even effects unique to themselves post-HW -- while also removing more modular actions like Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize, they reduced the modularity in DRG's actions which then removed allowances for further rotational complexity.

We're not dealing merely with a button cap; we're dealing with a class dev team (duo? trio?) that only ever actively dumbs down the jobs they make any notable modifications to.

As Forte mentioned, job button counts are not equal, or even all that close to equal. Neither, even, are effective button counts (imagine every skill that could be consolidated, such as Ley Lines<>Between the Lines, Enochian->Blizzard IV<>Fire IV, Umbral Soul<>Transpose; RDM's melee chain, Verstone<>Veraero (unless Swiftcast/Dualcast), Verfire<>Verthunder (unless Swiftcast/Dualcast), Scorch replacing Verholy/Verflare, Impact replacing either AoE upon Dualcast or Swiftcast; Chaos Thrust Chain(+2), Full Thrust Chain(+2), Jump<>Mirage Dive, Blood of the Dragon<>Stardiver; etc., etc. and then consider what those jobs' button counts would be).