Each expansion I get hyped and also worried about more skills.

[CKNovel]

I don't understand why more buttons necessarily means more skill?
If rotations ever DID get simplified they could put that skill requirement into, say, less choreographed encounter designs.

I mean World of WarCraft and Elder Scrolls online both have much simpler rotations than FFXIV with much fewer buttons but both games are widely considered harder than FFXIV.
In Burning Crusade Classic some classes have literally a one or two button rotation but some guilds are still struggling to down Magtheridon.

More buttons doesn't means more skill, look at AoE/Single Target variants. What's the decision behind "should I press X or Y?", the answer is always obvious if you know math and how the games works.
But more button can also means more execution skill. Compare MCH wildfire from HW/SB to Wildfire from ShB.

As far as I know, raiding in WoW is a gear check, not mechanic+dps check. Crusade classic was cleared a few days after release.
No matter if you press 1 at the same speed, players will have different outcomes based on their gear. Gear is easy to access in XIV.

People who find the button number tedious just don't have any button management skill.
It's up to them to better manage their hotbar, not to the others to reduce their fun.

Believe me if you were to spam 1, you would first be relieved but then bored really, really hard.

[Nyarlha]

Believe me if you were to spam 1, you would first be relieved but then bored really, really hard.

What gives you the authority to assume what people would think?

1 1 1 and 1 2 3 are both equally boring. There is absolutely no thought going into pressing 1 2 3 already.

[CKNovel]

What gives you the authority to assume what people would think?

1 1 1 and 1 2 3 are both equally boring. There is absolutely no thought going into pressing 1 2 3 already.

Oh, simply based on experience, not authority.

Can't you see DRK, WAR and MCH complaining about the spam? Or Healers bored to hell with 2 DPS abilities?
I follow you on that, 1 2 3 can be monotonous on tanks and MCH but that should be extended, not compressed in a single button.
Otherwise you'd get the same result but you'd manage to make it even more boring.

[Swimcito]

Oh, simply based on experience, not authority.

Can't you see DRK, WAR and MCH complaining about the spam? Or Healers bored to hell with 2 DPS abilities?
I follow you on that, 1 2 3 can be monotonous on tanks and MCH but that should be extended, not compressed in a single button.
Otherwise you'd get the same result but you'd manage to make it even more boring.

I agree that some skills could be improved ...

I Switched from Warrior to Gunbreaker, even though thematically i liked warrior more, simply because Gunbreaker's toolkit is more fun...

Yeah you still have the 1, 2, 3, but in Gunbreaker's case at least, not only you open 4-7,5-8,6-9 (with 7,8,9 being oGCD on Continuation), but you also have two instants (a single attack and aoe one) and when the whole 4,5,6 > 7,8,9... at least you get Burst Strike to "discharge" cartridges... and on your 1,2,3 there is also mini game, as in 2 heals you, and 3 gives you a cartridge... Besides that you also get an Bleed which takes up a global but i like it as it is (only its dmg suck), but completes the rotation.

Whereas Warrior was all about, 1,2,3 > repeat till enough rage, fell cleave, and every 2 minutes Inner Release > fell cleave, fell cleave, fell cleave, fell cleave... then infuriate inner chaos/cyclone.. wait for inner release cooldown doing 1,2,3 ... Repeat .... And dont even get me started on the fact that Inner Release pre lvl 70 sucks (in the rotation, as you are rage starved)

[Ultimatecalibur]

I follow you on that, 1 2 3 can be monotonous on tanks and MCH but that should be extended, not compressed in a single button.
Otherwise you'd get the same result but you'd manage to make it even more boring.

The idea behind compression is that you end up extending things with the room freed up by the compression. You turn 1, 2 and 3 from being a single 3 button combo into 5+ actions including the previous 3 button combo.

For example with MCH you could: Turn the 3 button Split Shot->Slug shot->Clean Shot combo into Split/Slug/Clean shot combo, add a 1 button 2-step branch off Split Shot that extends Automaton deployment time when used with no Battery generation, and add a battery consuming 2 stage Chainsaw attack that works like BLU's Phantom Flurry. 3 buttons turn from 3 actions into 7 actions.

I'm now imagining a poor sprout switching to SAM for the first time and seeing three Hakazes on their hotbar. 11, 122, 133 or whatever would work, of course.

Which is why you set it up differently.

You would have a Hakaze(default)->Yukikaze button, a Jinpu(default)->Gekko button, a Shifu(default)->Kasha button, a Fuga(default)->Mangetsu button and an Oka button.

Pushing Hakaze would turn it into Yukikaze with the combo ring while also putting combo rings around Jinpu and Shifu. Pushing Jinpu or Shifu would turn them into their 3rd step while reverting Yukikaze back to Hakaze.

[Nyarlha]

The idea behind compression is that you end up extending things with the room freed up by the compression. You turn 1, 2 and 3 from being a single 3 button combo into 5+ actions including the previous 3 button combo.

For example with MCH you could: Turn the 3 button Split Shot->Slug shot->Clean Shot combo into Split/Slug/Clean shot combo, add a 1 button 2-step branch off Split Shot that extends Automaton deployment time when used with no Battery generation, and add a battery consuming 2 stage Chainsaw attack that works like BLU's Phantom Flurry. 3 buttons turn from 3 actions into 7 actions.

This is exactly the point I've been trying to make yes. We have had 3 expansions of the devs trying to keep the same amount of buttons for each job while adding to their kits, resulting to a lot of pruning and a lack of skills at lower levels. If you could consolidate things, it would actually leave a number of keybinds open to add new and exciting things, including at lower level.

[Ayuhra]

More buttons doesn't means more skill, look at AoE/Single Target variants. What's the decision behind "should I press X or Y?", the answer is always obvious if you know math and how the games works.
But more button can also means more execution skill. Compare MCH wildfire from HW/SB to Wildfire from ShB.

As far as I know, raiding in WoW is a gear check, not mechanic+dps check. Crusade classic was cleared a few days after release.
No matter if you press 1 at the same speed, players will have different outcomes based on their gear. Gear is easy to access in XIV.

People who find the button number tedious just don't have any button management skill.
It's up to them to better manage their hotbar, not to the others to reduce their fun.

Believe me if you were to spam 1, you would first be relieved but then bored really, really hard.

WoW and FFXIV are challenging in different ways.

If we had the WoW/ESO number of buttons in FFXIV this game would be easy. The choreography would become your main focus and that's something you can quickly get down.

If WoW had FFXIV's number of buttons with the odd 2 minute long rotation then that game would be absurdly hard.

I'm imagining doing something like Heroic Uu'nat, Harbinger of the Void with a Summoner rotation and it's giving me a migraine.

[Shurrikhan]

WoW and FFXIV are challenging in different ways.

If we had the WoW/ESO number of buttons in FFXIV this game would be easy.

Another "button count = complexity" implication?

Odd, then, that there's still far more cognitive load required from my favorite specs in WoW than any job here even with that lower button count -- all the more so when in contexts outside of XIV-standard striking-dummy-plus-DDR fights...

Similarly, I can imagine WoW having XIV amounts of buttons and, per XIV, being all the less capable of nuance or shifting priorities.

[Ayuhra]

Another "button count = complexity" implication?

Odd, then, that there's still far more cognitive load required from my favorite specs in WoW than any job here even with that lower button count -- all the more so when in contexts outside of XIV-standard striking-dummy-plus-DDR fights...

Similarly, I can imagine WoW having XIV amounts of buttons and, per XIV, being all the less capable of nuance or shifting priorities.

I don't think you read the entire comment chain that was a part of because I agree with you. It started with this:

I don't understand why more buttons necessarily means more skill?

If rotations ever DID get simplified they could put that skill requirement into, say, less choreographed encounter designs.

I mean World of WarCraft and Elder Scrolls online both have much simpler rotations than FFXIV with much fewer buttons but both games are widely considered harder than FFXIV.

In Burning Crusade Classic some classes have literally a one or two button rotation but some guilds are still struggling to down Magtheridon.

My point above was that if FFXIV dropped buttons but changed nothing else it very well could become too boring and easy. WoW with very long rotations and tons of buttons meanwhile would be so hard nobody would play it. It packs a lot of complexity into the buttons it has compared to FFXIV.

I mean WoW is a bit of a disaster right now in terms of overworld content and direction but it is still king in raid design.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think you read the entire comment chain that was a part of because I agree with you. It started with this:

My point above was that if FFXIV dropped buttons but changed nothing else it very well could become too boring and easy. WoW with very long rotations and tons of buttons meanwhile would be so hard nobody would play it. It packs a lot of complexity into the buttons it has compared to FFXIV.

I mean WoW is a bit of a disaster right now in terms of overworld content and direction but it is still king in raid design.

Oh, I read the chain. It's simply that this part (underlined above) did not come across, especially when explicitly calling WoW's rotations "much simpler" regardless of the spec or job being compared. Such would then rely on (A) what is exclusively "rotation" considering that the term in WoW also includes priority order, shifts therein, and many other elements of playflow, and (B) which of the included elements/criteria therein are weighed higher.

Personally, even friggin Arms spec, under certain builds (Collateral-Merciless, in a predominantly AoE fight but with frequent add appearances, for instance), will have every bit as tight and complex of macrorotation as an optimized DRG. It just has both a lower button ceiling (though not necessarily even a lower effective button ceiling, at least by any more than 2) and a higher effective button floor (rather than all but 1 of your GCD skills being effectively non-choices for 9 out of every 10 GCDs).

Honestly, for raid design, I'd say XIV mostly gives WoW a run for its money, though I wish it was a little less centered on DDR alone. Its the more mixed-encounter content like dungeons (M+, in WoW's case) where WoW's higher effective button floor really shines by comparison.