Implications of Social-Construct terms of "Humanity" and "Beast"

[Jandor]

She ignores on the idea that Humanoid =/= Human, but she ignores much of my posts on this issue. Are you going to apply real world science on these races next? Are the Viera and Au Ra are simply just Human races similar to say Europeans and Africans next which all Human races belong to the same species including the Hrothgars? And is it confirmed by actual sources? Did the people of Ul-dah, who were the ones who created the term in the first place, were using in both cultural and scientific? I would love to see them because you two are confusing the living hell out of me that is contradictory to what others are telling me here, and that's what pissing me off more than anything. A prime example of gaslighting here.

Are you not familiar with the concept of just having a polite discussion for the sake of it? You created a thread called "Implications of social-construct terms of Humanity and Beast" and yet when I try to talk about the implications of term, to move beyond what is explicitly stated and theorize on the how and why of the terms spread, you accuse me of spreading misinformation and gaslighting.

If there are no differences between man and beastman, then what exactly do you think caused it to spread the way it did and be applied to the races it was? The term was created by one city state, and yet is now used by virtually all Eorzeans and applied pretty universally to all native non-human sentients.

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Also, regarding the human races, yes they are somewhat similar to the real world human race. The player races of Eorzea are confirmed as being able to crossbreed. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/32685-Questions-related-to-Lore?p=490835&viewfull=1#post490835

[Moogly900]

Are you not familiar with the concept of just having a polite discussion for the sake of it? You created a thread called "Implications of social-construct terms of Humanity and Beast" and yet when I try to talk about the implications of term, to move beyond what is explicitly stated and theorize on the how and why of the terms spread, you accuse me of spreading misinformation and gaslighting.

If there are no differences between man and beastman, then what exactly do you think caused it to spread the way it did and be applied to the races it was? The term was created by one city state, and yet is now used by virtually all Eorzeans and applied pretty universally to all native non-human sentients.

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Also, regarding the human races, yes they are somewhat similar to the real world human race. The player races of Eorzea are confirmed as being able to crossbreed. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/32685-Questions-related-to-Lore?p=490835&viewfull=1#post490835

So? The races in the WoW universe are also able to cross breed, and they have nothing to do with each other biologically speaking(Elves evolved from Trolls, and they evolved naturally in Azeroth while Humans, Gnomes and Dwarves came from Titan creations). It isn't universally all of the sapient races(only in Eorzea for political reasons which isn't the case by the peoples of Othrad), and people already told you that it's strictly an Eorzean terminology first created by Ul-dah which they tried to push into Amaljah territory and other tribes that resisted their homogeny into their lands. People already had showcase these things to you, but you refuse to acknowledge and admit that your interpretations are merely just hypothetical at best. Terms like man, human, beasts and etc are all social constructs to categorize between the Spoken and the others for political reasons similar to how the Garleans look at all as savages which have no biological, linguistic, anthropological basis, no more no less. Applying real life science into the worlds of fantasy like FFXIV or WoW doesn't make any remote sense. Koji fox doesn't imply that they're the same "species" or anything here, and in real world science, it's a very outdated concept since species do intermix in the wild, and different species can have fertile offsprings and others don't. Go ask people like Darren Naish or Thomas Holtz on Twitter for more clarification.

Sorry, but you're the one who is pushing his/her theories as factual in the game canon here, not us. Lastly, you haven't told me as to why the Hrothgar aren't considered as Beasts by Eorzeans while the Lupins are? As what others said and the Eorzea encylopedia, these terms are solely discriminatory political terms which has no logical reasons behind them be it biological, anthropological and etc. Everything else are just guesses and theories.

That comes from them being native to Othard, and in the Hrothgars case, Ilsabard. The phrases "Beastmen" and "Beast Tribes" originated from Ul'dah, when the Amal'jaa rebuffed their aggressive expansion into Amal'jaa lands. The Syndicate was quick to slap the label on them because they could then impose taxes and security tolls on the trade routes for keeping the roads safe from "Them."

The terms then spread to the other three city-states and was applied to their own indigenous problem-children and the rest is history.

Miqo'te are a tribal culture too and probably narrowly dodged the bullet because 1.) they look comparatively human next to eorzea's other indigenous peoples and 2.) because they folded in with the "Civilized" world where others did not.

Comparatively, the Au Ra and especially Hrothgar immigrants actually faced considerable scrutiny and likely persecution when they first appeared in Eorzea. We know Sidurgu's tribe was more or less exterminated to a man because they were mistaken for Dragonkin by Ishgardian forces, while the Hrothgar were feared and ostracized as beastmen until they gained a measure of mastery of the Eorzean common tongue to make themselves understood.

Meanwhile in the Far East, the connotations of "Beast Tribes" is something we Eorzeans carried with us East, the Kojin, Lupin and Namazu are not branded so and in fact, the latter two blends in quite seamlessly with the local Spoken, while the former prefers isolation on the sea floor but maintains cordial relations. Viera lastly, though tribal. Are much too isolated outside of their native lands to receive the Beastman Brand, and are perceived more as curiousities than an actual people.

It's important to remember that despite the species' player population, Viera don't actually leave their forest homes in droves, in fact you'd be lucky to spot even one in a lifetime.

[Vyrerus]

So?

You're getting a little heavy handed here. Jandor's just trying to say and reinforce that there are differences, and that's why the use of the term beastman has spread around. As well as why the beastmen refer to the spoken races as stuff like, "Shorewalker" "Uplander" "Walking Ones" etc. As much as there is an othering by the Spoken races, the beastmen often other the spoken as well. The beastmen themselves acknowledge their differences, and they are quite proud of themselves in a lot of cases (particularly where their differences allow them advantages, such as inborn flight or breathing underwater).

Also, don't forget that even learned people like Sharlayans, who are technically not Eorzean, even use the term beastmen. Look further still to the Auspice questline in Stormblood. A kojin takes on the role of Genbu and eventually becomes a spiritually inclined Adamantoise. Despite what the devs say, there are differences.

[Strongfat900]

You're getting a little heavy handed here. Jandor's just trying to say and reinforce that there are differences, and that's why the use of the term beastman has spread around. As well as why the beastmen refer to the spoken races as stuff like, "Shorewalker" "Uplander" "Walking Ones" etc. As much as there is an othering by the Spoken races, the beastmen often other the spoken as well. The beastmen themselves acknowledge their differences, and they are quite proud of themselves in a lot of cases (particularly where their differences allow them advantages, such as inborn flight or breathing underwater).

Also, don't forget that even learned people like Sharlayans, who are technically not Eorzean, even use the term beastmen. Look further still to the Auspice questline in Stormblood. A kojin takes on the role of Genbu and eventually becomes a spiritually inclined Adamantoise. Despite what the devs say, there are differences.

Not exactly. The Sharlayans were part of the Eorzean alliance till they left it recently, and they're descendants of Eorzean colonists that were brought over to the island by Nyunkrepf Nyunkrepfsyn 1,500 years ago. The term was first created in Ul-dah as a socio-political term to persecute those they despised(amaljaa among others). The term is never used in Norvrandt for example(the First), or in the case with Lupins who are not considered as such by the locals except by the Garleans. The Hrothgar for example look just as beastly as the Lupin, but they're not considered as beasts for obvious political reasons which the latter story of FFXIV began to show that the people of Eorzea began to change their attitudes of them. Even this guy that written this wish to throw this term as useless.
https://i.redd.it/86g4mkeg00v21.jpg

fyi, Sharlayan is part of Eorzea in it's geographical location.
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Eorzea

The term is also used in the continent of Ilsabard as well. It doesn't diminish the idea that these terms were created by the Ulda'ans which spread all over the continent which the Garleans took that as well. The differences in physiology is apparent, but then again, so do the beastmen with each other as well. It's basically a continuum really rather than stricly this or that. Hyur look the most human obviously with the rest going in a direction from human looking to beast looking. In other words, the fact that these terms are not used in the Far East(except for Garleans and etc), or not at all in the First speaks volumes.

[YianKutku]

fyi, Sharlayan is part of Eorzea in it's geographical location.
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Eorzea

Sharlayan, the island place we go to in the north that is labelled as "Old Sharlayan" in our teleport menu, is not part of Eorzea.

Sharlayan, the colony place in the Dravanian Hinterlands that was abandoned fifteen years ago, is part of Eorzea.

Both are called "Sharlayan" by everyone, including people from (Old) Sharlayan and from Eorzea. When told that this causes much confusion, people from both Sharlayans went "that sounds like a you problem". If forced, they call the Dravanian Sharlayan "Emporium". (We only learn of this in Endwalker while browsing the Noumenon, so it could be something the lore team came up with offhand.)

Every time Sharlayan is referred to as one of the "city-states of Eorzea", they mean the Dravanian colony.

[Strongfat900]

Sharlayan, the island place we go to in the north that is labelled as "Old Sharlayan" in our teleport menu, is not part of Eorzea.

Sharlayan, the colony place in the Dravanian Hinterlands that was abandoned fifteen years ago, is part of Eorzea.

Both are called "Sharlayan" by everyone, including people from (Old) Sharlayan and from Eorzea. When told that this causes much confusion, people from both Sharlayans went "that sounds like a you problem". If forced, they call the Dravanian Sharlayan "Emporium". (We only learn of this in Endwalker while browsing the Noumenon, so it could be something the lore team came up with offhand.)

Every time Sharlayan is referred to as one of the "city-states of Eorzea", they mean the Dravanian colony.

True, but regardless, the term, beastmen, was created by the Ul-daans which was spread by the denizens of Eorzea as well as the Garleans. Y'shtola was born and raised in the colony of Sharlayan, and uses the term early in the game which the term becomes less and less used, and the reconciliation between the two began to take shape. Not to mention that the term was never used in the Far East or in the First.

And yes, the *new* Sharlayan was founded by Nyunkrepf Nyunkrepfsyn due to his prediction of the sixth umbrel calamity which he took many people into his ark to the lands that became the Eorzean Sharlayan.

[Cleretic]

And yes, the *new* Sharlayan was founded by Nyunkrepf Nyunkrepfsyn due to his prediction of the sixth umbrel calamity which he took many people into his ark to the lands that became the Eorzean Sharlayan.

Nyunkrepf didn't make New Sharlayan, he made Actual Sharlayan. He made Nyunkrepf's Hope, sailed to Eorzea to save as much of its people as he could (which I think must've been mostly Nymians but that's my vibe), and then teleported that ship out of danger, which marooned it in Gyr Abania.

From there, they journeyed up north on foot, through Abalathia's Spine and picking up people on the way, until they hit the Dravanian hinterlands, at which point he went 'okay, here's the plan: SECOND BOAT' which they use to sail to what is now Actual Sharlayan. It's possible that New Sharlayan was founded there in remembrance of his journey, but Nyunkrepf didn't build anything there except a way to get away from there.

[Moogly900]

Are you not familiar with the concept of just having a polite discussion for the sake of it? You created a thread called "Implications of social-construct terms of Humanity and Beast" and yet when I try to talk about the implications of term, to move beyond what is explicitly stated and theorize on the how and why of the terms spread, you accuse me of spreading misinformation and gaslighting.

If there are no differences between man and beastman, then what exactly do you think caused it to spread the way it did and be applied to the races it was? The term was created by one city state, and yet is now used by virtually all Eorzeans and applied pretty universally to all native non-human sentients.

----

Also, regarding the human races, yes they are somewhat similar to the real world human race. The player races of Eorzea are confirmed as being able to crossbreed. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/32685-Questions-related-to-Lore?p=490835&viewfull=1#post490835

Okay. I guess that the playable races of FFXIV like the Roes, Lalafells and etc are similar to the ESO human races like Nords, Redguards and etc, right? As in, these races belong to the same species which is Humans similar to our species with different races and ethnicities, right? So, we can say with confidence that the Beastmen races are indeed a biological grouping which is true for Humans.

Wonder why the Lalafells in the First are considered as Beasts though? Hmm. Weird.