DPS jobs lacking utility?

[Payadopa]

-snip-

Most of your examples are something I wouldn't call good utility. Stun almost never works, Second Wind and Bloodbath are pretty much the same thing only BB isn't useless, damage down abilities are just boring, and do you even remember the last time people used heavy and bind unironically or outside of Eureka/Bozja?

It's one thing if you prioritise balance over interesting design (or fun..), but saying we have good utility is not true.

And the same can be said about the fluff abilities that you press every 90 or so seconds that make your DPS go up by X%. Very shallow.

[AnotherPerson]

Most of your examples are something I wouldn't call good utility. Stun almost never works, Second Wind and Bloodbath are pretty much the same thing only BB isn't useless, damage down abilities are just boring, and do you even remember the last time people used heavy and bind unironically or outside of Eureka/Bozja?

It's one thing if you prioritise balance over interesting design (or fun..), but saying we have good utility is not true.

And the same can be said about the fluff abilities that you press every 90 or so seconds that make your DPS go up by X%. Very shallow.

What do you classify as good utility that doesn't break boss mechanics entirely and render them to a tank and spank?

Honestly curious, because from what I've seen in normal content, most people don't even use the good utility given to them (addle/feint) on bosses unless they feel like they're goanna die, and anything like Holmgang's original effect can interrupt a boss's cast by pulling them away changes the fight too much.

[Shurrikhan]

What do you classify as good utility that doesn't break boss mechanics entirely and render them to a tank and spank?

You realize a fight that does makes no use of utilities is the very same tank, spank, and DDR?

Honestly curious, because from what I've seen in normal content, most people don't even use the good utility given to them (addle/feint) on bosses unless they feel like they're goanna die

Because in most cases it has too little effect to even reduce healing requirements by a single GCD... If it's going to make literally no difference at present, but it could in the future, why would you put it on cooldown?

and anything like Holmgang's original effect can interrupt a boss's cast by pulling them away changes the fight too much.

Let's not base expectations towards any and every utility on a single oversight attached to a single outlier (which, btw, was still virtually never useful).

[AnotherPerson]

You realize a fight that does makes no use of utilities is the very same tank, spank, and DDR?


Because in most cases it has too little effect to even reduce healing requirements by a single GCD... If it's going to make literally no difference at present, but it could in the future, why would you put it on cooldown?

Which still doesn't change the question, what would be considered "good utility"?
Ultimately, all the non-essential utility in FFXIV is mainly for non-optimal situations or used for trash mobs and everyone calls those bad utility because they're never always needed or even used properly. Then what is considered good utility?

Players use utility if it's expected of them. If your PLD and BRD have to take turns silencing High Voltage and your BRD misses the silence, then everyone knows who is responsible. So you get it right. If you give everyone a silence, then it falls to the lower end of the dps spectrum (tanks and healers) to sort it out so that everyone else can tunnel on the boss. If missing the silence doesn't have consequences, then nobody will do it.

Actually, reverse the order of responsibility - most players don't even care about interrupts unless it's high end content where interrupting is a necessary mechanic to survive. For normal content, there's a lot of situations where people just expect the healers to heal through the failed interrupt mechanic first, and if it's a good healer, then they'll keep you alive through the failed interrupt. If not, then the blame goes on why the healer failed, before the blame goes to tanks and ranged DPS for missing the silence/stun (Dohn Mheg is a notable one where a lot of tanks don't even realize they can prevent the damage up buff on the adds, which ends up putting more pressure on the healer). Players use utility if they are necessary (aka if they wiped) since most situations aren't lethal enough to cause a wipe if you didn't use that utility.

[Marxam]

Which still doesn't change the question, what would be considered "good utility"?
Ultimately, all the non-essential utility in FFXIV is mainly for non-optimal situations or used for trash mobs and everyone calls those bad utility because they're never always needed or even used properly. Then what is considered good utility?

-"Good" utility is anything that restores your resources i.e. HP, MP, TP, job gauge. Things like equilibrium, lucid dreaming, goad, infuriate, etc. that immediately benefit you and is almost always a DPS increase because of ease-of-use and flexibility.

-"Non-essential" utility is anything that is tied to mechanics i.e. stuns, silence, slows, etc. These are situational and supplement DPS but doesn't inherently contribute to it because it is planned and predicted and tied to mechanics. Things like stunning Ifrit eruptions are good but mechanically redundant because it existing doesn't change the fact that you have to deal with it and only offers slight variability in a fight outcome. The same could be said for reprisal, addle etc.

Make note that non-essential utility is useful for extreme, savage, ultimates, and players who actually give a damn about how they play. Every other instanced content is merely there as an option.

[Shurrikhan]

What would be considered "good utility"?

Good utility is utility which allows for multiple but deliberate and impactful means of approach. It therefore requires not only a good kit but also appropriate contexts.

In game design 'utility' can be really hard to codify, because it comes in two flavors: Tangible (Ex: Trick attack, dance partner, regens, leylines), and Intangible (Ex: En Avant).

If utility is something that is adding to a numerical value that your constantly comparing, it is easy to design but can often feel either invisible (Ex: Bard songs), helpful (regens when they won't ever be a difference maker in even getting the healer one more cast), or overwhelming (old trick attack or piercing/slashing debuffs for example). Its also hard to make even really strong ones feel good or to make them noticeable for your teammates. A few feel REALLY good (Leylines) because they both are a meaningful DPS increase AND are visible in how they are helping you (It isn't an accident many of the 'fun' utility is a speed increase, because casting more is very visible), but overall even when these are good they lack any real 'highpoint' compared to a big attack with a flashy animation.

Agreed, though I'd argue that if a parser is required for a given utility to be visible, let alone a comparison of multiple runs, it's not remotely tangible. (Dance Partner, for instance, would fall among those, at least outside of Devilment and sometimes its stacked AoE heal.) Opposite, a skill with situational value (such as En Avant) is a tangible gain when pertinent situations arise. The main problem is crafting situations to allow for pertinence enough for tangible utility without constraining means of successful interaction to that utility.

Consider, for instance, a would-be lethal AoE. If the AoE has no fall-off over range and movement skills are relevant, the fight becomes constrained to those movement skills. Alternatively, if the AoE has linear fall-off over a considerable range, the difference of a mere 10 yards may not be quite as noticeable as one would like. The perfect solution, then, is likely one which allows for but softly punishes or constrains preemptive movement, such that laggy players can skill escape with Sprint alone (and that Sprint would have no need to be on cooldown), but in which the AoE nonetheless feels timely and punishing enough that those movement skills significantly aid safety and/or uptime.

[dezzmont]

Agreed, though I'd argue that if a parser is required for a given utility to be visible, let alone a comparison of multiple runs, it's not remotely tangible. (Dance Partner, for instance, would fall among those, at least outside of Devilment and sometimes its stacked AoE heal.)

I would actually call Dance Partner one of the few 'good' team DPS buffs in the sense that it is very visible that your partner is your partner and is helping you, you get animations, and there is a feeling of connection and prestige for being 'chosen' as dance partner among pickup groups.

Ultimately I think a good support/utility skill is about making the players feel a connection to other players.

A good example of another game that did this very well was LoL. Sona was a character who had BRD like group buffs that were extremely relevant to total DPS but were entirely passive and represented just by a buff icon. They updated her to have her offensive aura work differently, where you moving near an ally after casting a certain spell caused their weapon or hands to glow blue and their next attack shot out a little 'magic missile' in a quick burst of damage, which despite being lower overall DPS felt WAY better and made it far more clear how helpful that character was.

Mobas in general are really good at this: Io from Dota is another great example of how to make what is essentially a trickle regen to an ally and a small attack speed buff feel mystical and cosmic just by having a fancy beam shooting space energy at them.

Obviously MOBA fight design is a bit different, but that may be a good angle to look for helping out lackluster abilities and utility. A LOT of popular jobs in XIV are popular not for mechanical reasons, but because the animation and flow of the job sells its fantasy so well. A raw DPS increase is a raw DPS increase, but 'I now cause my allies to shoot musical notes with some attacks that makes them get a cool bonus animation and for me to get some benefit' is SPICY and lets both a hypothetical bard feel great for tossing out a buff and lets the party 'see' the damage increase, even if it is in fact still just a 1% damage buff.

Utility is less about actually being necessary or game changing and more about allowing players to define themselves by connecting with their teammates. Its more a fantasy of being a team player who is helping everyone rise to a challenge. In a sense, despite a combat Peloton in theory being less useful in 99% of encounters than the AOE damage resists ranged DPS get, it would probably be far more popular with most of the playerbase for better fitting in with this 'I want to make a connection with my team and be seen doing it' model of utility.

[Shurrikhan]

I would actually call Dance Partner one of the few 'good' team DPS buffs in the sense that it is very visible that your partner is your partner and is helping you, you get animations, and there is a feeling of connection and prestige for being 'chosen' as dance partner among pickup groups.

It's one of the better as far as mostly "simply moves numbers around" buffs go, but for me that has only to do with the additional expectations that may then be placed upon me, like tracking the CDs of their heal and Crit buff, since I'd be using them simultaneously. It hasn't nearly the presence that, say, Io has, imo, as I don't feel the passive effect whatsoever.

It's one of the main reasons I don't enjoy playing Dancer. That core skill just feels like a matter of finding who's likely to do the most damage and forgetting the skill exists until they die or badly betray your expectations. Heck, there's more to it, even, from their PoV than ours, given the attached CD that doesn't quite allow us to shuffle it around with each renewed burst phase (if/when staggered from one another) or switch between a target of higher burst during their burst and one of higher sustain outside those periods.