Would skill based match making be good for FFXIV?

[Leonerdo]

I think letting sprouts be confined to sprout parties would only work at times like now, when there are lots of sprouts to go around. But duty finder's primary purpose is just to get people into content faster. Cause if there's one thing that kills a new player's experience the fastest, it's having to do a dungeon and being unable to even find a group.

Maybe if it were an optional thing, with a convenient check-box. Then people could choose to be matched with a more similar party or just have a faster queue. I have a feeling that new DPS players would never be able to use the SBMM though. The queues are long enough as-is, and they're heavily supported by veterans who want the adventurer-in-need bonus.

I think just throwing everyone into the same pot actually sorta works for the community anyways. Because everyone quickly learns/accepts that parties are variable. If you give people the power to choose their teammates (and make it more convenient than PF), then many of them will loathe the idea of leaving their bubble and playing with different kinds of players. And taking that first step out of sprouthood and into end-game content might be extra tough. If I were still a sprout, I'd prefer to have veterans helping so I wouldn't get stuck on anything, and I'd have a good example to learn from. Maybe that's a little pretentious though...

TL;DR: Convenience and stable queues are more important than comfort. And SBMM could lead to an echo chamber effect and harsher learning curve. So I'm still skeptical. The devs would have to put extra work into the surrounding systems to deal with those issues. It's possible though.

Edit: To be clear, I admit that it would be nice for sprouts to have the option for a more chill experience. Being able to spend more time exploring a dungeon for the first time, not feeling rushed, getting to see more boss mechanics before it's over, etc. It's just tough to create a system that allows for that, while also promoting personal/community growth AND being convenient enough that it doesn't feel like a waste of time.

[Artemiz]

Ok, so ignoring the elephant in the room, queue times, this idea still has many flaws, and honestly comes off as you having some problem with people who raid.

The main issue here is that for the content you are requesting to have skill based matchmaking for has no real skill requirement. The only time any dungeon has ever required a disband was if a player d/c'd and the party got tired of waiting. People can literally afk for minutes at a time during boss fights, and the run will still go smoothly.

Also I don't know how this will help give newer players better advice. If people are matched based on skill, then lower skilled newer player will be matched together. If I get matched with newer players under such a system then according to the matchmaking I am just as low of skill as them, and won't be giving them any better advice.

This is getting a bit tiresome now, earlier in the thread it was being insinuated that I was elitist and didn't want to play with low skilled players, now your accusing me of the opposite. Neither is true. Its a very simple thought experiment, would players be happier if they got paired with others of a similar skill level? That's it.

You also seem to be vastly overstating how effective a SBMM system can be to stawman the argument. Its not only possible, but more effective to learn from your peer group than getting carried.

I think letting sprouts be confined to sprout parties would only work at times like now, when there are lots of sprouts to go around. But duty finder's primary purpose is just to get people into content faster. Cause if there's one thing that kills a new player's experience the fastest, it's having to do a dungeon and being unable to even find a group.

Maybe if it were an optional thing, with a convenient check-box. Then people could choose to be matched with a more similar party or just have a faster queue. I have a feeling that new DPS players would never be able to use the SBMM though. The queues are long enough as-is, and they're heavily supported by veterans who want the adventurer-in-need bonus.

I think just throwing everyone into the same pot actually sorta works for the community anyways. Because everyone quickly learns/accepts that parties are variable. If you give people the power to choose their teammates (and make it more convenient than PF), then many of them will loathe the idea of leaving their bubble and playing with different kinds of players. And taking that first step out of sprouthood and into end-game content might be extra tough. If I were still a sprout, I'd prefer to have veterans helping so I wouldn't get stuck on anything, and I'd have a good example to learn from. Maybe that's a little pretentious though...

TL;DR: Convenience and stable queues are more important than comfort. And SBMM could lead to an echo chamber effect and harsher learning curve. So I'm still skeptical. The devs would have to put extra work into the surrounding systems to deal with those issues. It's possible though.

Edit: To be clear, I admit that it would be nice for sprouts to have the option for a more chill experience. Being able to spend more time exploring a dungeon for the first time, not feeling rushed, getting to see more boss mechanics before it's over, etc. It's just tough to create a system that allows for that, while also promoting personal/community growth AND being convenient enough that it doesn't feel like a waste of time.

This is a great post, thank you for focusing on the core of the debate and providing a well thought out and eloquent opposition to it. I won't reply to any points you've made as I've already made my position clear and I can tell you've read them and thought about them.

[TaleraRistain]

Its a very simple thought experiment, would players be happier if they got paired with others of a similar skill level? That's it.

But what happens with someone who would ding high level on whatever parameters the game would use but doesn't want to be paired with that group? Or someone still learning who would ding low but wants to be with more experienced players? There doesn't seem to be room in your equation for higher skilled players who want the more chill experience. Or lower skilled players who want a more structured experience because they value the instruction and input.

[Lunalepsy]

I had a thought, inspired by the increased proliferation of SBMM systems in other games. They have been controversial, especially in PvP games but I was wondering what the community thought for DF content in this game.

By definition most players are average so would see little change, it would mostly effect either low skilled or high skilled players, essentially keeping them apart in DF content as being matched together seems to be a frustration for both groups.

Cons:
Queue times could be increased slightly for players on the extreme edges of the skill spectrum, particularly high skill players. This would be mitigated by faster, smoother runs though.
Having to carry would be thing of the past for high skilled players.
Getting carried would be a thing of the past for low skilled players

Pros: Lower skilled players would feel less pressure to speed run at 100 miles per hour or perform to the high standards of others.
A reduction in friction and frustration in content.
New players might get a minute to smell the roses in a new dungeon instead of trying to keep up with an experienced and skilled group.

Disclaimer: I know this is a thought experiment that won't happen but thought it might be a good discussion during a content dip.

How skill would be determined is obviously open for debate.

Personally, I wouldn't be against it and think it could make the game more enjoyable for players at either extreme while not really effecting the majority by all that much. Im not desperate for it though as I don't want or expect to get carried and don't sweat about it if I'm the one carrying as long as people are at least trying.

This game does not promote knowing your class (being skillful).

[Neoyoshi]

What type of algorithm could even understand people just being people? Sometimes a person's hand hurts, some people get older.

Sometimes we wake up early and decide to queue in a dungeon run and our brains are just not functioning at normal compacitiy.

How does someone quantify human error?

Why is this a discussion?

[Artemiz]

But what happens with someone who would ding high level on whatever parameters the game would use but doesn't want to be paired with that group? Or someone still learning who would ding low but wants to be with more experienced players? There doesn't seem to be room in your equation for higher skilled players who want the more chill experience. Or lower skilled players who want a more structured experience because they value the instruction and input.

This is at the heart of the discussion really, keep as it is where you get what you get but with the problems we have now, or implement SBMM for a more consistent experience that could reduce conflict and tension. Party finder and pre-made groups are still there though, something more experienced players are far more likely to know about and use.

What type of algorithm could even understand people just being people? Sometimes a person's hand hurts, some people get older.

Sometimes we wake up early and decide to queue in a dungeon run and our brains are just not functioning at normal compacitiy.

How does someone quantify human error?

Why is this a discussion?

SBMM has been around for decades, its mandatory for ranked PvP and used in both casual PvP and PvE by developers who think it will enhance the experience, especially for new players.

[Wavaryen]

Some sprouts would enjoy playing dungeons with other new players who will see it for the first time. Others just want to get it done.


It is really hard thing to do to be honest. For example, if I group up and queue with someone who is lesser skill. Does the match making avg the skill up from the group?


but the content is so easy that I don't think that it is require myself for skilled players. And the few sprouts it would make happy. Is it worth development time for?

[Artemiz]

It is really hard thing to do to be honest. For example, if I group up and queue with someone who is lesser skill. Does the match making avg the skill up from the group?


but the content is so easy that I don't think that it is require myself for skilled players. And the few sprouts it would make happy. Is it worth development time for?

That would obviously be up for debate but I would personally lean towards the algorithm leaning more towards the lower skilled player.

Almost certainly not worth the development time, thats why I suggested its just a debate as it wouldn't actually happen. I do think it would help a lot with player retention though and the game is booming right now, I havent seen this many sprouts for a long time

[DinahDemiurge]

How about this for a compromise...

Much like how trials can be taken on minilvl, unsync, etc maybe have a toggle "first timers preferred" for those who have already cleared. If you toggle that, you'll be out into a party with three sprouts. Basically only one vet allowed and they are brought in by choice, perhaps for extra gil or achievements. Thoughts?

[Artemiz]

How about this for a compromise...

Much like how trials can be taken on minilvl, unsync, etc maybe have a toggle "first timers preferred" for those who have already cleared. If you toggle that, you'll be out into a party with three sprouts. Basically only one vet allowed and they are brought in by choice, perhaps for extra gil or achievements. Thoughts?

Sounds a bit like how we can toggle joining duties in progress or not. Sounds like a good idea to be honest, I wouldn't have a problem with it as you wouldn't have to tick it if you didn't want to and the veteran player would be much less likely to throw their weight around if its 1 vs 3