Would skill based match making be good for FFXIV?

[Vesemir]

I understand the concept, but... why? Duty finder was specifically designed to connect players with different level of skill. I personally enjoy guiding less experienced players, and most of the peeps I've met were the same. If there is someone new or a first timer, I usually ask the tank to slow down a bit. This was never a problem. Not to mention a similar tool is already implemented in the game, party finder should be good enough for that purpose.

[Rinhi]

Unfortunately, Rinhi, there is no surefire way to help newbies learn their jobs. You could explain how and why another skill is so good, or that doing combos is amazing, but we really have to operate by the adage, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

All of your examples are longer than the standard tooltip for skills, and most newbies don't even read those.

In my experience, the only time newbies want and ask and are receptive to help is when they are having problems desperate enough to prevent simply clearing the content. All other times they see advice as, "Minmaxing" even if it's something as innocuous as, "Hey, uhm, could you please use your weaponskills? You've just been auto attacking this whole time."

In regards to Krojack talking to you about it, personally I think they don't get into roulettes enough. I've seen tons of people trying to help, even in the nicest way possible given guff or stonefaced silence over the years. In FFXIV.

mhm, that's why I react allergic to the notion that it's the fault of the people trying to help because "they word it wrong" or some other excuse
like, you can read a negative tone into the most innocuous attempts at helping:
the aforementioned examples can be seen as condescending and talking down, if you do it without the niceties you're demanding, if you fluff it up like "hey, I'm not sure you've noticed/realized, but [...]" or "I've seen you do X and Y, but A and B is straight up better because etc!" can be seen as passive aggressive and stuff, you just can't win

I mean you are posting on the forums so I figure you wanted the help. Clearly you need it as you don't know how to help people in the right way without them getting offended. Unlike these players. Clearly you are asking help because people don't want too listen to you in a pug. So glad I could help. If you need more help. Let me know.

not toxic btw, not gonna dignify your pure drivel with a response anymore since you're a lost cause intent on just being a toxic prick at this point because people dared to disagree and argue with you
though, it's funny how upset you get when people use your own flawed logic against you, since you always lash out like a child in response

[SturmChurro]

Just don't give unsolicited advice. Kick or leave, if you feel it's necessary, I say.

Without a doubt this is possible, queue times could increase but the strength of the SBMM can easily be tightened or relaxed. The statistics used for determining skill are obviously a big debate, it doesn't have to be too complicated though. Consider players who have cleared current savage as high tier, players yet to complete ARR MSQ low tier, something like that.

Frankly, matchmaking wouldn't even work in general PvE content in the first place, there are just too many variables, and it'd be overall detrimental. I do not see this as the answer. It barely works in PvP games, granted one problem with those are players actually trying to game the system, like with new accounts, or throwing matches, to get into the lower end.

[Novae]

I don't know. DF seems pretty ok to me. If you want to flex your skills, just use the PF instead.

[Sebazy]

All of your examples are longer than the standard tooltip for skills, and most newbies don't even read those.

Big this ^

It all goes back to the simple fact that it really doesn't matter if people bother to read tooltips or not. Why should they? It's a waste of time and effort no? I can pass every duty up until Extremes by gently pressing my face on the keyboard paying particular attention to an auto follow hotkey if needed.

Not only does this game actively turn a blind eye to all but the most extreme cases of ignorance in duties, it also has a tendency to discourage and punish those that actually try? Try to help others and you'll always get those that'll just report you no matter how polite and civil you were. Get the wrong GM and you'll end up with a suspension for your efforts. Try to help yourself? Sure, just don't speak about it in game or again, you risk a suspension.

Until this is tackled, things will never improve.

[SannaR]

Someone didn't notice the 80+ thread of just asking a way to help teach people get better. I know this isn't asking for that. Even though it might seem like a good idea you'd still get people cheesing the system. I don't know how the current feast works, but I do know it had a similar system and let's just say people would throw matches due to getting teams that were better than them yet in the same bracket. Part of why most of the time the CT raids pop up is due to people queing up so that they won't get anything but those raids. Once people know how the scoring works there would be those who'd start performing poorly just so they can go back to an "easier" skill group. Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't mind trying it out cause I would. Just to see where I'd end up and how long it would take before those who wanted an easier time or felt like they were being judged even if not by their fellow players started to play poorly until they'd get tossed into a lower bracket.

[Artemiz]

I'm starting to wish I wrote the OP differently to be honest because a lot of people are focusing on the technical aspects of SBMM and not what it is trying to achieve. Im less interested in that personally as this was only a thought experiment anyway and technical issues can all be ironed out with good game designers.

What I was really try to ask is would the game be better if the players tended to play with others of similar level, as different expectations and skill levels tend to be at the heart of a lot of the friction I see in the community.

Personally I think it would, as a professional instructor I am not in any way convinced by the argument that impatient elite players are best suited to teach new players anything. I think they would learn better in an environment they are comfortable in, at a speed they are comfortable at. You dont teach a kid how to become a racing driver by sticking them in an F1 car, you put them in a go-kart and give them time to learn alongside their peers.

Im really not too worried about players at the elite end of the spectrum, they can handle themselves and as suggested, they can use party finder. I'm more concerned about the guy who has done 6 dungeons in their entire life and is now getting chewed out in Haukke Manor for not doing wall to wall pulls. Expecting that person to use party finder is asking a bit much especially as they probably have no clue what it is at that point.

The ARR content in this game is so important for player retention and its already handicapped with the most grindy quests, the weakest voice acting and the least engaging story of the whole game. The actual content has a lot of powerlifting to do in order to hook new players in and it really doesn't help when Billy big balls starts chewing a fledgling sprout out because they want their roulette done faster.

I've leveled all my tanks exclusively in dungeons and showing flexibility and courtesy to new players is always extremely well received. This "can't give advice" issue evaporates immediately when people genuinely believe you're there to help and are happy to be patient in my experience.

[SannaR]

I'm starting to wish I wrote the OP differently to be honest because a lot of people are focusing on the technical aspects of SBMM and not what it is trying to achieve. Im less interested in that personally as this was only a thought experiment anyway and technical issues can all be ironed out with good game designers.

What I was really try to ask is would the game be better if the players tended to play with others of similar level, as different expectations and skill levels tend to be at the heart of a lot of the friction I see in the community.

Personally I think it would, as a professional instructor I am not in any way convinced by the argument that impatient elite players are best suited to teach new players anything. I think they would learn better in an environment they are comfortable in, at a speed they are comfortable at. You dont teach a kid how to become a racing driver by sticking them in an F1 car, you put them in a go-kart and give them time to learn alongside their peers.

Im really not too worried about players at the elite end of the spectrum, they can handle themselves and as suggested, they can use party finder. I'm more concerned about the guy who has done 6 dungeons in their entire life and is now getting chewed out in Haukke Manor for not doing wall to wall pulls. Expecting that person to use party finder is asking a bit much especially as they probably have no clue what it is at that point.

The ARR content in this game is so important for player retention and its already handicapped with the most grindy quests, the weakest voice acting and the least engaging story of the whole game. The actual content has a lot of powerlifting to do in order to hook new players in and it really doesn't help when Billy big balls starts chewing a fledgling sprout out because they want their roulette done faster.

I've leveled all my tanks exclusively in dungeons and showing flexibility and courtesy to new players is always extremely well received. This "can't give advice" issue evaporates immediately when people genuinely believe you're there to help and are happy to be patient in my experience.

It won't work because a lot of the NA/EU player base would rather play poorly just to avoid needing to actually play at a higher skill set even if they know they're able to do so. There's a huge part of the player base that live and will die by the whole why should I or anyone try if you can still clear said instance. While yes there are some who bully or pressure sprouts or returners. There are many who flame the crap out of veterans even if you do your best to give advice in the nicest mildest ways. Again there'll be people who if this was ever implemented who'd feel like their skill bracket is shaming them due to not being as skilled as the rest in their bracket. Then you have the problem of what skill group do you put a partial made party if everyone in that partial isn't of the same skill group?

[Artemiz]

It won't work because a lot of the NA/EU player base would rather play poorly just to avoid needing to actually play at a higher skill set even if they know they're able to do so. There's a huge part of the player base that live and will die by the whole why should I or anyone try if you can still clear said instance. While yes there are some who bully or pressure sprouts or returners. There are many who flame the crap out of veterans even if you do your best to give advice in the nicest mildest ways. Again there'll be people who if this was ever implemented who'd feel like their skill bracket is shaming them due to not being as skilled as the rest in their bracket. Then you have the problem of what skill group do you put a partial made party if everyone in that partial isn't of the same skill group?

I'm sure that's very true but where PvE SBMM would differ from PvP SBMM is with PvP the better you get the harder your experience is. One of the criticisms is if the skill brackets are opaque, which they tend to be in casual content, then players don't feel a sense of skill progression because as they get better the groups they get put in match that. You can tell in a fps game when SBMM is strong because almost everyone has a Kills/deaths ratio close to 1.0, elite pro players might get close to 2.0 but without SBMM they would be more like 5.0+
In PvE if you refuse to improve you will be left with slow parties and at least you would know you are progressing as your dungeon runs get smoother and faster.

A mixed skill level pre-made is always an issue with SBMM systems that is true, at least in PvE you could focus more on the lower end, it takes a special kind of ass to knowingly queue for content in that situation and start kicking off. In PvP you have no choice but to weigh in favour of the higher end to avoid noob bashing.

[XabyTimberwolf]

I'm always giving tips and what not to help people in dungeons and have never once been flamed. I bet the people trying to give the tips are doing in a tone that doesn't seem very pleasant. I have seen that before.

"Hey noob, you need to git gud!"

Vet wonders why no one takes his advice... "I was just trying to help a new player, why do I get toxic replies?"