Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

[Izar_Chillen]

Dungeons going forward , if they continue to make them available as Trust applicable , will always be simplified in order for the AI to be able to manage mechanics . If dungeons were to throw unique things back in and add variety, which many of us would love to see back again , SE would either have to vastly improve the Trust system , or get rid if it. I dont see SE doing either.

[Drakonic]

Complicated dungeons are great ... in a *single player game*.
Or I guess if you always, always go in with a group of friends, AND they're difficult as well as complex. Maybe.

The dungeons you're pointing out as the pinnacle of ARR dungeon design are nigh-universally loathed as the worst possible roulette results.

Loathing Pharos Sirius sure, but I've never heard people loath the others that I've listed en masse.

Also there won't be a "worst" roulette result if all dungeons back then were on Pharos Sirius difficulty. Also keep in mind that players have gotten much better since ARR. Jobs are easier and more streamlined too. If a modern Pharos Sirius comes out it wouldn't be a vote abandon or leave, I can guarantee it.

[Drakonic]

It's interesting to see the disconnect between those who post on forums and those who post elsewhere or just play the game. I used to be upset by it but now I'm just intrigued.

Put bluntly, I think this is breath wasted. There are a myriad of reasons the dungeons are what they are and the 'substance' of them exist in manners that are different. I'm not going to expound on that here because it's a dead horse. Put bluntly, dungeons are roulette fodder. They have their purpose and exploration isn't it.

What I would like to see them spend the time away from making these dungeons to create true exploration content. I think we'd be well served by another Deep Dungeon that rewards exploration at a higher level than what we currently have accessible. Because when I see the descriptions of what people want - Deep Dungeon is the first and strongest example of something we already have that fits those desires. So I feel that's the route to go here for satisfying that itch. So, instead of complaining about roulette fodder, I'd like to see them revisit and improve upon Deep Dungeon based content so that those who want to enjoy diving into branching environments have a place to go that's recent.



No I can confirm that it's not a meme and has never been one. Sorry but this isn't one of those situations where it's ironically 'bad' and secretively good. They've actively nerfed this dungeon and I've still, recently seen people still take the half-hour-hand-slap to avoid this dungeon. Sorry but I think you've been misled there.

They should take some ideas from beta Torghast and Bozja and implement those into deep dungeons. Sadly though it seems that there is not the appetite for that.

[Drakonic]

"are becoming" ?
It has been like this since 2.1
(and it's not like they really tried for 2.0 dungeons)

I think there are several 2.1-2.5 dungeons that are actually engaging. Heavensward had a few good ones like Neverreap, but you can see it starting to become streamlined. It's not until Stormblood that all dungeons became trivial.

[Drakonic]

Dungeons going forward , if they continue to make them available as Trust applicable , will always be simplified in order for the AI to be able to manage mechanics . If dungeons were to throw unique things back in and add variety, which many of us would love to see back again , SE would either have to vastly improve the Trust system , or get rid if it. I dont see SE doing either.

Unique mechanics don't have to require extremely well-done AI. It requires them to code special cases into the Trust System. That's more work, but it wouldn't require a "vast improvement". There's only so much you can do in this game after all - attack, movement, interaction, and utility abilities. They've already coded half of that in and making an NPC stun a mob or interact with a mechanic should be extremely trivial. The rest is just coding the logic for each specific mechanic.

[van_arn]

I’m more concerned about how the bosses get continuously nerfed over time. Whether that be by overly generous ilvl sync, class changes (tank), or by straight up difficulty nerfs (like coincounter) the dungeons only get more braindead with time.

Stuff that used to be a thematically appropriate difficulty spike like Praetorium or cape westwind are so toothless right now there’s no gameplay justification for them to be undertaken by 8 people.

Note I’m not saying this content needs to be made hard; I am saying this content needs to be made “easy” since the current difficulty of this content is nonexistent.

[Jirah]

I’m more concerned about how the bosses get continuously nerfed over time. Whether that be by overly generous ilvl sync, class changes (tank), or by straight up difficulty nerfs (like coincounter) the dungeons only get more braindead with time.

Stuff that used to be a thematically appropriate difficulty spike like Praetorium or cape westwind are so toothless right now there’s no gameplay justification for them to be undertaken by 8 people.

Note I’m not saying this content needs to be made hard; I am saying this content needs to be made “easy” since the current difficulty of this content is nonexistent.

This, yoship bless his heart, does not care at all about old content the first time he actually intervened was to nerf somthing rather than improve. 70 dungeons were good and now in 90 they’ll be trivial. 80s are already trivial and of course the leveling ones remain decent but for how long? If peak dungeons are too easy and older dungeons that used to be fun are trivial by law or level creep the entirety of the content is starting to wane if it hasn’t already

[Payadopa]

I don't get why we can't have difficulty sliders. Sorry, I meant sliders that have more than normal, easy and _very_ easy.

What even is very easy? You unsheath your weapon and win? Normal already feels like an insult to my intelligence.

[Kaurhz]

They should take some ideas from beta Torghast and Bozja and implement those into deep dungeons. Sadly though it seems that there is not the appetite for that.

If I'm interpreting this the correct way, then color me impressed, as I think it'd be great to incorporate quite a few features of Bozja inside of Deep Dungeon. I think it would be a missed opportunity not to do so.

[Dzian]

To be honest the entire game is going all style no substance more and more with every patch.

Even basic jobs. The tanks are all the same the healers are all the same the dps are all the same. It's just different styles of the same stuff..

Even buffs lack substance they're all just a damage modifier with different flashy sparkly effects.

Take cooldowns. There's no substantial difference between sentinel and vengeance and whatever the other 2 tanks have.. its just different visuals.. all style no substance..

Even the dps jobs. Just different styles of the same thing. What substance does a ninja have that a dragon doesn't. None. Its the exact same substance just with a different coat of paint..