Open World PvP

[Artemiz]

Wait but you said; "Liking PvP doesn't make someone a bully. Enjoying picking on people weaker than them, does"

From what I could tell you never said anything about level. Though that is fair if you have other factors.

If people want to PvP against like minded players thats fine, I like PvP games too. I dont worry about their K/D ratio in CoD. The game has reasonably strong skill based matchmaking anyway and we all start on a level playing field. The people who reverse boost so they can game tge system and get put into a low skill lobby just to noob bash are sad and ruining the game for others though, in my opinion.

There is an argument that we can somehow make PvP entirely optional and if we could, in the perfect world then cool, have at it. I just think at this point in the game its not really possible without impacting everyone else in one way or another and as the PvP player base is so small in this game I vote for the status quo, keep it to niche, instanced content. Improve it sure, expand it to servers or entire open world zones? Nah, not worth it.

[Krotoan]

The op didn't say that playing in an open world environment where these things would be possible shouldn't be opt-in.

Please explain in way would you be able to do most of what they want if the other person had a choice of participation in the matter?
Killing people who disagree or are doing something they disapprove of? Given SOME may accept this as a valid risk if they had signed up for a PVP server in the first place. OP is very much speaking about a population they disagree with (and has specifically mentioned them) who mostly likes being left alone and would very very likely be opting OUT of this system if at all possible to continue to have their fun unmolested.

Killing people in the overworld while they quest?
"encourages partying while overworld questing"
Implicit risk says that this ISN'T something you could opt out of or you'd just turn it off to get the quests done.

I'm not saying OPT-IN PVP is bad. I'm saying what the OP wants is basically griefing. Not even veiled. They just want to grief players they disagree with and I can and will voice my distaste of it and raise a voice to say that as a player, I do not want this.

I mean let us be real that is what you are saying cause in practice that is what often pvp boils down to someone better picking on another because the objective is to kill the other person.

Often followed by enjoyment for winning the match or having fun killing them.

Liking PVP can involve: Enjoying a contest between players knowing you're up against a human instead of a script or AI. Enjoying winning. Enjoying knowing that at the end of a FAIR contest you are the more skilled player.

Bullying always involves: Using a stronger position to antagonize someone weaker.


PVP CAN involve bullying but it is not in itself bullying. If the aspect you most enjoy of PVP is finding weaker players with no chance to defend themselves and constantly killing them, then you are enjoying bullying.

[Awha]

Please explain in way would you be able to do most of what they want if the other person had a choice of participation in the matter?
Killing people who disagree or are doing something they disapprove of? Given SOME may accept this as a valid risk if they had signed up for a PVP server in the first place. OP is very much speaking about a population they disagree with (and has specifically mentioned them) who mostly likes being left alone and would very very likely be opting OUT of this system if at all possible to continue to have their fun unmolested.

Killing people in the overworld while they quest?
"encourages partying while overworld questing"
Implicit risk says that this ISN'T something you could opt out of or you'd just turn it off to get the quests done.

I'm not saying OPT-IN PVP is bad. I'm saying what the OP wants is basically griefing. Not even veiled. They just want to grief players they disagree with and I can and will voice my distaste of it and raise a voice to say that as a player, I do not want this.




Liking PVP can involve: Enjoying a contest between players knowing you're up against a human instead of a script or AI. Enjoying winning. Enjoying knowing that at the end of a FAIR contest you are the more skilled player.

Bullying always involves: Using a stronger position to antagonize someone weaker.


PVP CAN involve bullying but it is not in itself bullying. If the aspect you most enjoy of PVP is finding weaker players with no chance to defend themselves and constantly killing them, then you are enjoying bullying.

Let us be real outside of strict setting like ranked or a competitive mode one team will generally always put up against a weaker team. Especially if premades are involved, and wpvp is no different if people attack another’s from a more advantage position. PvP and bullying should never go hand in hand since that is just the nature of PvP.

Taking advantage of the weakest link or using an advantage is not bullying and each of those can still be found enjoyable. The aspect of bullying and PvP should never go hand in hand since that is a stance that could never be proven unless the person doing the action states otherwise it will always be based around an assumption of the person who was defeated.

I get the idea where you are coming from but as someone that enjoy competitive PvP in games like EOS, WoW, and Tor your notion is a lofty dream the reality is as mentioned outside strict environments the parameters you put forth are already ever met. Especially because those who are skilled tend to be friend other skilled players in their respective games and thus stack the odds in their favor.

While I do not think it is your stance one could say your stance views premades with stacked players are nothing but bullies because they enjoy playing with friends.

[Caurcas]

You want PvP because you think "might is right" and you want to "deal with" pf groups you don't like on a PvP server which is forced onto a PvE player base. And that's just the OP. Do I need to say more?

How is that bullying? Just because I want the chance to solve things by my own hand? Meanwhile the parties I am opposed to might well prove more strong than myself. I don't see the bullying.

[Artemiz]

How is that bullying? Just because I want the chance to solve things by my own hand? Meanwhile the parties I am opposed to might well prove more strong than myself. I don't see the bullying.

Well, might is right is self evidently the mindset of a bully. As for the party finder groups thing, I'm no Inspector Clouseau but even I can work out you want to chase ERP groups around the housing zones in a pack. You can't do it alone so you would have to take the "regulators". Even if they are breaking the TOS that would still be harassment and bullying, they don't want to fight you, they want to do........yeah. Your responsibility as a player, and an adult is to report them, not turn into Billy the Kid.

[Caurcas]

Well, might is right is self evidently the mindset of a bully. As for the party finder groups thing, I'm no Inspector Clouseau but even I can work out you want to chase ERP groups around the housing zones in a pack. You can't do it alone so you would have to take the "regulators". Even if they are breaking the TOS that would still be harassment and bullying, they don't want to fight you, they want to do........yeah. Your responsibility as a player, and an adult is to report them, not turn into Billy the Kid.

I dunno the Siren county war sounds like a heck of a party.

[Krotoan]

Let us be real outside of strict setting like ranked or a competitive mode one team will generally always put up against a weaker team. Especially if premades are involved, and wpvp is no different if people attack another’s from a more advantage position. PvP and bullying should never go hand in hand since that is just the nature of PvP.

As I specified. This can happen, but if this is the part you ENJOY.. then you are bullying.

Taking advantage of the weakest link or using an advantage is not bullying and each of those can still be found enjoyable. The aspect of bullying and PvP should never go hand in hand since that is a stance that could never be proven unless the person doing the action states otherwise it will always be based around an assumption of the person who was defeated.

People can say whatever they want, but it's pretty obvious that people speaking of ganking lowbies are enjoying that specific part of it. I don't need to prove it, people have outright said it in this thread. Not acknowledging that is being pretty disingenuous.

I get the idea where you are coming from but as someone that enjoy competitive PvP in games like EOS, WoW, and Tor your notion is a lofty dream the reality is as mentioned outside strict environments the parameters you put forth are already ever met. Especially because those who are skilled tend to be friend other skilled players in their respective games and thus stack the odds in their favor.

I don't think you do. I don't consider those games bullying, but bullying within the framework of PVP happens and people who revel in the bullying aspect of it make it worse for everyone else. There are people (such as myself) who enjoy this game in part BECAUSE it has no WPVP. I don't even have to think about it. I don't have to worry that some 12 year old with hours and hours on his hands can ruin my personal experience just because he's bored.


I played WoW (on a PVP server), AION, BDO, RO, AoC, all of which have PVP elements and were entertaining in their ways. What I never liked was someone within the framework of that PVP abusing it to antagonize others by bodycamping, or extreme high levels hanging out in lowbie areas, or camping necessary storyline NPC's, or ambushes in dangerous paths that exploited hitboxes and terrain.

These experiences drive people off and are good reasons for people NOT to want WPVP in a game that has never had it.

While I do not think it is your stance one could say your stance views premades with stacked players are nothing but bullies because they enjoy playing with friends.

One could say if they wanted to strawman my position. However it is not. I would however say a premade stacked with experienced players that abuses ranking ladders to play against lower ranked players (throwing to reduce rank) or buys new unranked accounts (smurfing is a pretty big problem in Overwatch) and stacks with experienced friends who have done the same IS bullying. The friends part is immaterial. The part we are discussing is strictly being a bully within the framework, not that the framework is bullying.

[VelKallor]

This is what OP wanted.

Greetings fellow forum posters. I post this thread today in order to promote and spur discussion on open world pvp in 14. I know this might be a bit of a hot take around these parts, but I believe it would improve the game immensely. Primarily in the social grouping aspect as it would encourage partying when questing more due to safety in numbers. Furthermore, it could be used as a way to settle disputes between players. In short, might would make right. It would also be a good way for players that have issues with certain pfs a way to take care of those without swamping an overworked GM with reports. Thoughts?

Non consensual no opt out open pvp

A gankfest.

A flat NO.

[VelKallor]

Taking advantage of the weakest link or using an advantage is not bullying and each of those can still be found enjoyable. The aspect of bullying and PvP should never go hand in hand since that is a stance that could never be proven unless the person doing the action states otherwise it will always be based around an assumption of the person who was defeated.

"Attacking a low level player to get higher level players to come and fight is the same as two 30 year olds beating up a 3 year old to get their parents to come out"- WOW GM 2016.

[Awha]

I get what you are saying but what I am getting at is everything you have stated could be categorized as use of tactics or strategy. It is a matter of perspective thus the bullying stance is flawed outside those cases where someone clearly states that is their intent.

Piller clipping in WoW, double stance discharge in TOR, baiting people to come and defend a position due to camping an NPC barring people from gaining access to certain things to force a WPvP encounter all of these things could be seem as a means to an end.

Which is why I feel the bullying aspect is disingenuous. I get some do not like PvP or having their experience interrupted by others but to say such actions are bullying because they operate on the premise that they are taking advantage of systems within PvP. We have to remember that enjoyment is a key aspect of a game and generally I personally believe unless the action outright is against the thns and actively enforced then ones enjoyment should not be called objectively bullying unless it can absolutely be proven to be the case.

Please understand I do not overall agree with certain tactics and this is also why I often be one of the people that protected lowbie areas but even so I would not say their actions were bullying, I would call them a crowd but not a bully.

Though I get my stance is very different from many because I have lived and breathed on PvP servers.

Often. such actions as lowbie camping were products of dying populations or unskilled players.