The dream of Mythic is basically dead... Frost Interview with Yoshida

[Bruenor]

It's a real shame, because a "Savage+" system for dungeons would do a lot of good for this game.

Funny whenever systems like that come on board, I usually leave that MMORPG. I started with Everquest in 1999. When it got raid or die, I left it for WoW the casual MMORPG. As WoW started turning into raid or die, I started trying just about any other game. Since I play with my kids, I usually ended up having to go back to WoW or stop playing with them.

What I LOVE about FFXIV is how casual it is and how the whole extreme gamer attitude isn't very prevalent here.Mythic+,timers and their attitude flowed down to regular dungeons to the point where a first time tank in a leveling dungeon better know every skip and be able to pull half the dungeon or get kicked. The guise of make it hard for me ruined the game for almost everyone but the top % and people are leaving in droves right now.

[Liam_Harper]

Funny whenever systems like that come on board, I usually leave that MMORPG. I started with Everquest in 1999. When it got raid or die, I left it for WoW the casual MMORPG. As WoW started turning into raid or die, I started trying just about any other game. Since I play with my kids, I usually ended up having to go back to WoW or stop playing with them.

But Mythic+ is an optional difficulty. The Normal dungeons remain intact and because Tome, EX, Eden Normal, 24 man and crafted gear wouldn't be removed, you'd still be able to obtain high ilv gear more than sufficient for any content the game has to offer.

"Raid or die" is when high end content is the main source of rewards and casual content is neglected, or even loses rewards because they don't want raiders to feel forced to do it. FF14 is so far from that mindset that there's no real danger of it affecting the game. Savage raids don't affect Normal raids for example, it's just an optional challenge. When Mythic+ was released in Legion, you could still enjoy the game casually too, their "raid or die" mindset is another issue entirely.

[Shurrikhan]

"Raid or die" is when high end content is the main source of rewards and casual content is neglected, or even loses rewards because they don't want raiders to feel forced to do it. FF14 is so far from that mindset that there's no real danger of it affecting the game.

This. Though, to be honest, WoW is far from that, too. The only way one could really claim otherwise amidst increasing side-content, various Brawls, Timewalking weeks, etc., is if one assumes that the goal of the game is solely to reach BiS or otherwise high item levels... despite partaking in no content for which BiS would be remotely necessary.

For my part, I do Mythic+ because it's fun as heck to me, especially with friends. Apart from that, I level, because I enjoy the character experience, and only occasionally sub in for friends' Heroic raid. Apart from having gotten my Legendary item earlier, I don't do content I don't enjoy, and yet I've never been locked out by gear (or otherwise by content I don't enjoy, apart, again, from the brief Legendary grind, which wasn't too bad in such brevity).

It was less that way in WoD when Mythic+ was released but in the 7 years since it has changed a lot.

There was no M+ in WoD.

WoD changed things only in that it hit a certain threshold in how hopeful the average player was willing to be when a given content drought seemed likely to run long (i.e., how much trusting slack they were willing to give Blizzard).

It can change the player base into something it never was before. Ever see a level 15 tank get kicked in their first newbie dungeon for not skipping the correct pats or not pulling enough groups? It happens because people don't want to lose 15 seconds.

That... has absolutely nothing to do with small-group granularly progressed challenge mode content like M+ being available at endgame. Are you sure you're referring to what you intend to?

[Bruenor]

When Mythic+ was released in Legion, you could still enjoy the game casually too, their "raid or die" mindset is another issue entirely.

True it was that way when I our raid team added Heroic level Bastion of Twilight and Blackwing Descent when it came out. It was less that way in WoD when Mythic+ was released but in the 7 years since it has changed a lot. Like I said, I have seen this pattern in other MMORPGs and I hope it never comes here.

It can change the player base into something it never was before. Ever see a level 15 tank get kicked in their first newbie dungeon for not skipping the correct pats or not pulling enough groups? It happens because people don't want to lose 15 seconds.

[Warlyx]

i think is a mistake not adding "mythic" , dungeons are dead otherwise , u do it once and done , outside Expert or ppl leveling no1 touchs dungeons sadly

SE has learned a lot over the gears , bozja raids are tons of fun , would be cool as 8 man too , hell i would love to see 24 main raids get 8 man versions it can add tons of content btw patches

[Bruenor]

That... has absolutely nothing to do with small-group granularly progressed challenge mode content like M+ being available at endgame. Are you sure you're referring to what you intend to?

Having had these discussions over several years in the game, I can only go by the vast majority of responses I have gotten on the WoW forums. It starts that players are only talking about what happens in Mythic+. Then the argument starts that we need to do the mythic skips in heroics so we have players ready for mythic+. Then i gets down to we have to have people learning how to skip and how to mass pull in starting dungeons. It's not just my take, many of the Mythic+ players on the forums are open about this is how it is - they also claim the entire game is ONLY about Mythic+ dungeons and Heroic raiding. Most complaints about Shadowlands are there is only content for the hardcoire -mythic+ and heroic raiders.

It's also why many long term players like myself haven't really run dungeons in a few years and / or have quit the game. Between DPS pulling for the tank to speed them up to simply vote kicking players for going to slow the impact of a timer has been very negative on the game as a whole for early WoW players.

[AvenoMatt]

I think a Mythic for dungeons would be fine maybe even just limiting it to lv50/60/70/80 dungeons. The rewards wouldn't even need to be that great a title per dungeon, some form of glam pieces here and there and a mount for competing a lv series. So finish all the lv50 mythic dungeons get a mount, lv60 get a mount, and so on.

Also also don't put then on roulette if ppl don't want casuals to have to be carried. If you want to run Mythic you have to form a party.

[Shurrikhan]

Having had these discussions over several years in the game, I can only go by the vast majority of responses I have gotten on the WoW forums. It starts that players are only talking about what happens in Mythic+.

Hyperbole aside, because it's content at some level accessible to just about anyone and everyone?

Normal raiding is too much of a sh*tshow to be worth your time? Far smaller commitments available via M+, without needing to bring 9+ friends if you want to avoid a "toxic" PuG experience.

In a gear lull between Normal and Heroic raids and don't want to PvP? M+ covers the entire span from sub-LFR gear to Mythic Raid gear, to be progressed at your own pace.

Want to just casually farm some Valor? M+ requires a whole lot less frustration than competing options.

It's not just my take, many of the Mythic+ players on the forums are open about this is how it is - they also claim the entire game is ONLY about Mythic+ dungeons and Heroic raiding.

You are asking people who most play M+ what in the game is important to them, and are surprised that they answer that the game, for them, is all about M+ (or similarly low-mannable (10-man) content roughly the difficulty of a +10 to +14 Mythic+ dungeon)?

Should I be surprised that a mount or transmog enthusiast tells me that the game is mostly about collections?

Most complaints about Shadowlands are there is only content for the hardcoire -mythic+ and heroic raiders.

Because those are the only forms of content that last. M+ lasts because it's inherently expansive, despite very little added development cost. Heroic raiding lasts because it's not something you just fumble through a couple times and get a clear.

Also, those complaints are clearly leaving out the entire PvP side of things.

Between DPS pulling for the tank to speed them up to simply vote kicking players for going to slow the impact of a timer has been very negative on the game as a whole for early WoW players.

Let's not mistake conveniencing pulls for inherently dangerous or officious behavior. I'm more than happy to have a ranged pull for me such that when I reach the first enemy, the others are already gathered for my AoE. Additionally, it's odd that such occurs at least as often in XIV leveling dungeons as it does in WoW, M+ or no, if M+ is the pivotal factor...

And you realize vote-kicking is effectively impossible in M+? Players literally cannot be replaced without forfeiting a run. The only reason to kick someone would be if they're actively sabotaging a run somehow, after you'd already reported them for such.

[Jirah]

I’ve notice the difficulty spiral downward, but this is not how you make organic difficulty in games via segregation. With savage literally being gated as hard content and being so few of them every expansion while every other content in the game is lacking interns of meaty Challenge like trials dungeons alliance raids and platform trials that they keep calling raids for whatever reason.

I say make more content that bridges savage to core, or not have the rift so vast by making casual content more thought provoking example being dungeons and trials, or enough with the titles and group the games difficulty as a whole which the interviewer confirmed won’t happen due to the games reputation of being family friendly for reasons way to unknown

[Neoyoshi]

Mythic to me feels like it would be weird in FFXIV's rotation of content; and I use the word rotation with some purpose here.

World of Warcraft Mythic is what it is and what those who look for it tend to enjoy because of the weekly rotating affixes and how the difficulty spikes can be partially controlled via keys, but more then that; it's become a part of Warcraft's underbelly black-market where players sell key runs for gold and RMT.

There is a whole subculture of personalities and a eSports league with real cash prizes on the line connected to Mythic 4-man dungeon's. That's not something another game can easily mimic or try to partially incorporate with hopes of attracting the same sort of personalities and evoke the same type of successes and failures.

I'm glad we aren't getting anything like that in FFXIV, but I don't believe that it should excuse them from at least trying to innovate and perhaps look at what made Mythic resonate with Warcraft players and say: "Alright, so we know the whole system itself wouldn't work in our game, but what about this small little piece here? Perhaps that could work somewhere in our game."