The dream of Mythic is basically dead... Frost Interview with Yoshida

[Puremallace]

Right at 4 minutes Yoshida basically admits the game is very casual and 4 man content in Mythic type content would lead to wipe fest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C79Oc_HRo1U

This kills me a little on the inside because the 4 man content needs to evolve into a more Mythic type system just to have it there as a challenge.

It does not even need to be progression and could be literally only glamour or mounts for all people would care.

[Liam_Harper]

In the case of a four-player high-difficulty dungeon, there is much less room for players to work with when it comes to party deaths or mistakes. If even a single party member is incapacitated or makes a mistake, it will invariably lead to a wipe, with not much leeway to save the run or come up with a creative solution. Another major reason is because our community continues to grow—naturally this is bringing in many casual players, and I believe that when looking at the bigger pictures, large-scale content will be easier for all players to get into

Basically it admits that they prefer large scale challenging content, because a single player playing poorly will not necessarily wipe the run. It's that mindset where even if some players want challenging content, they aren't allowed it because they're supposed to be carrying the casual playerbase and that comes first. It's a strange mindset since the Japanese community actively avoids carrying people who don't contribute to the point of unofficial public blacklists. It's also very unrewarding for the skilled player to be constantly putting in work carrying the casual playerbase, yet rarely receive recognition or their own content and are often shunned as a "tryhard" or "elitist" by the very players they carry. Why bother?

In an ideal world, we'd have both a healthy mix of casual and challenging content, including dungeons, and both types of player could enjoy their own content. It's a shame, tbh Mythic+ wasn't even that hardcore outside of pushing very high keys and they don't even have to adopt the timer system.

[Puremallace]

In an ideal world, we'd have both a healthy mix of casual and challenging content, including dungeons, and both types of player could enjoy their own content. It's a shame, tbh Mythic+ wasn't even that hardcore outside of pushing very high keys and they don't even have to adopt the timer system.

It is just surprising. I get the concept because Yoshida thinks people are asking for full blown Mythic plus affixes every season with new concepts when in reality the playerbase of WoW ends up hating most of the affixes and actively avoids the game in horrible weeks.

What would be interesting to give players control is a way to adjust dungeon settings to create player made challenge modes. I mean it is mostly an epeen measuring contest anyways and I think if they are that worried about the casuals it is a way to appease the more hardcore base of the MMO.

They have to throw a bone at some point.

[Arohk]

because a single player playing poorly will not necessarily wipe the run.

Uhm, pretty much that what happens in Savage raids, one player can do a small mistake and it is a wipe, people who don't want difficult content will avoid it anyway.

I am personally not a fan of World of Warcrafts Mythic+ system, I despise it, but that has less to do with the difficulty curve but how it is implemented.

[LittleImp]

It's also very unrewarding for the skilled player to be constantly putting in work carrying the casual playerbase, yet rarely receive recognition or their own content and are often shunned as a "tryhard" or "elitist" by the very players they carry. Why bother?

This kind of stuff genuinely erodes my interest in the game. I've joined random mostly-casual FCs a few times, only for people to immediately develop a negative predisposition towards me as soon as they find out hardcore content is my main interest, even if they're people I've never personally interacted with. I've taught people to raid, only to have their friends accuse me of "ruining" or "tainting" them. I wish I was kidding. If you spend time on twitter or in facebook groups for this game, there is genuine "beware of raiders" and "don't befriend raiders" discourse pretty frequently.

When I started playing the game in HW I was fed the same kind of stuff by my gr00mer FC leader at the time, and embarrassingly ended up engaging in 'you pull it you tank it' behavior under his encouragement. Newer players are trained to be in a state of constant insecurity and told that the elitist boogeyman is constantly watching them, when in reality truly elitist interactions are extremely rare in game, even in higher difficulty content. This insecurity and frankly, paranoia, is what causes casual players to lash out when they feel they've been slighted or demeaned, even if they're just reading something completely incorrectly.

I've had to talk grown adults down from literal hissy fits in voice chat, simply because they misunderstood a literal compliment someone else in the group gave them, and assumed they were instead being criticized by an "elitist".

[Liam_Harper]

This kind of stuff genuinely erodes my interest in the game. I've joined random mostly-casual FCs a few times, only for people to immediately develop a negative predisposition towards me as soon as they find out hardcore content is my main interest, even if they're people I've never personally interacted with. I've taught people to raid, only to have their friends accuse me of "ruining" or "tainting" them. I wish I was kidding.

Sad to say I've experienced similar too. I used to organize EX and Savage in my FC, which went great until a bump with performance during the last boss of a tier. As in mathematically impossible to progress until worked on. I tried everything to be as accommodating as possible, open practice runs, friendly mentoring but in the end some became distant towards me as if I was causing trouble, leading to an eventual silent demotion from the officer group. The game has such a safety bubble environment that anyone who tries to disturb that, even for good reason, can be resented. Things like that definitely erode interest in the game.

Overall in ff14, even if you know things will be a struggle and why, you're meant to stay silent and try to carry the extra weight so the rest of the group can sit happy in the illusion that everything is good.

[Coupain]

This kind of stuff genuinely erodes my interest in the game. I've joined random mostly-casual FCs a few times, only for people to immediately develop a negative predisposition towards me as soon as they find out hardcore content is my main interest, even if they're people I've never personally interacted with. I've taught people to raid, only to have their friends accuse me of "ruining" or "tainting" them. I wish I was kidding. If you spend time on twitter or in facebook groups for this game, there is genuine "beware of raiders" and "don't befriend raiders" discourse pretty frequently.

Same as you.

I would say that my skill in game is in average clear and scoring of deep dungeons on team, primal extremes ( content that i enjoy the most ) and savages kills on three or four month which is not elitist i think.

I have joined a lot of casual/midcore FC and the last one kicked me. My mistake : I asked the kill of a the primal extreme and Unreal of the new patch week 1…because it was elitist.

The only « elitist » thing that i have done on 7 years of playing this game was… one pull of Alexander Ultimate….

On the other side, when they need a deep dungeon clear or if it s week 7 or 8 of the primal, often old mate from this FC ask me fo help to kill lol

Sorry for my english

[Theodric]

This kind of stuff genuinely erodes my interest in the game. I've joined random mostly-casual FCs a few times, only for people to immediately develop a negative predisposition towards me as soon as they find out hardcore content is my main interest, even if they're people I've never personally interacted with. I've taught people to raid, only to have their friends accuse me of "ruining" or "tainting" them. I wish I was kidding. If you spend time on twitter or in facebook groups for this game, there is genuine "beware of raiders" and "don't befriend raiders" discourse pretty frequently.

When I started playing the game in HW I was fed the same kind of stuff by my gr00mer FC leader at the time, and embarrassingly ended up engaging in 'you pull it you tank it' behavior under his encouragement. Newer players are trained to be in a state of constant insecurity and told that the elitist boogeyman is constantly watching them, when in reality truly elitist interactions are extremely rare in game, even in higher difficulty content. This insecurity and frankly, paranoia, is what causes casual players to lash out when they feel they've been slighted or demeaned, even if they're just reading something completely incorrectly.

I've had to talk grown adults down from literal hissy fits in voice chat, simply because they misunderstood a literal compliment someone else in the group gave them, and assumed they were instead being criticized by an "elitist".

I've had similar experiences and I wouldn't consider myself a 'hardcore' player so much as someone who just likes to dabble in as much of the game as possible and collect minions, mounts and neat glamour.

I've never played a game with such a flaky community before. It's a real shame - I like a lot of stuff about FFXIV. It's not a perfect game and I have my beef with it, but out of all the options where MMO's are concerned it's at the top of the pile for me on almost every front.

It's just...so hard to find people to do stuff with, though. From treasure maps to deep dungeons to BLU challenges...

[NYCLouisGamer]

I've had similar experiences and I wouldn't consider myself a 'hardcore' player so much as someone who just likes to dabble in as much of the game as possible and collect minions, mounts and neat glamour.

I've never played a game with such a flaky community before. It's a real shame - I like a lot of stuff about FFXIV. It's not a perfect game and I have my beef with it, but out of all the options where MMO's are concerned it's at the top of the pile for me on almost every front.

It's just...so hard to find people to do stuff with, though. From treasure maps to deep dungeons to BLU challenges...

FFXIV is the only MMORPG that I know of that is both based on a single-player RPG experience and is a theme park. It's bread & butter is an audience that came directly from casual & ultra-casual content.

Dark Souls will risk your success in order to preserve enjoyment. FFXIV will risk your enjoyment in order to preserve success.

[Dracian]

It's a real shame, because a "Savage+" system for dungeons would do a lot of good for this game. The way I envisioned it would be like this:

"Savage" difficulty would present gear roughly equivalent to starter end-game gear or a little above. So, say in Shadowbringers it would drop items around i435. Savage+1 would be slightly harder but drop i440. Rinse and repeat until you get Savage+5 would end up around i460, which is between Normal, but not quite up to Savage raid gear level. Then, every time a new raid is released, we'd get another 5 levels of Savage+ difficulties to bridge the game in gear, with the top-level always being around 5ilvl below Savage (and maybe missing a materia slot or something).

To make the dungeons more interesting, I'd bring in a system like PoTD/HoH with modifiers and items that you can use to change up the runs.

That way it would serve as a side gearing source, allowing players to fill in slots they may be having some bad luck on in their main raids or in the alliance raids. As well as providing an alternative gearing path outside of just tomestone gear. Plus, it could keep all of those unique dungeon gearsets viable longer, as the game could just scale them up as rewards. Not to mention time-based leaderboards, community races/events that could be built around it, etc.

I know I personally would spend a lot of time on that type of content, especially if they made it difficult enough to require coordination, cooldowns, and maybe some light CC/slowing here and there (with items available for jobs that may not have certain abilities).