Yoshida on "carrying" other people

[Katie_Kitty]

No, you just want this content tailored to you instead of being tailored to what would be fun for a new player. Do you honestly think new players enjoy spending 60% of their big epic story confrontation dead just so you'll feel like the content was engaging for your skill level? Roulettes are for first timers to get groups; and the rewards exist to get vets to continue running old story content that they're SICK OF. Making it last longer isn't helping anyone.

Like I said multiple times now, if you want this crap to take forever make your own group and go do ultimates or self-impose restrictions on normal. Most people don't want to be doing Orbonne all evening, though.

Who put you in charge of deciding what first-timers want? Lots of people are going to be driven away if the game continues to have this reputation of being way too easy and coddling people who want everything handed to them with no effort.

[linayar]

I think this is something that often gets clouded over by overuse of certain buzz words. But there's a big difference between lesser skilled but actually trying. And blatant laziness or the you don't pay my sub mentality.

The problem arises essentially when players don't even try.. to play at even a basicly competent level and expect everyone else to carry them.

Again there's a big difference between carrying someone who's actually trying. And carrying someone who isn't.

Oh, I agree that there's a difference. However, the effect on having less personal responsibility blurs the lines between the two.

So, "Take your leeches and be glad for them, or lose enjoyably tuned content." Guess that's fair. /s

I don't know about fair or not, but people who want more "accountability" have them in Extreme/Savage/Ultimate contents. That is why I've always said kicking is a fine solution, especially in more difficult contents. But certain leniency might be appropriate for current Normal/Hard contents.

I don't think you can just glitch over the bold text either because he is talking about 24 and 48 man raids, not light party content. If I remember right, in other interview he discussion more difficult 4 player content and that the development team find it limiting in the stuff they can add to it. Basically a "Savage" Dungeon would really just be an increase in monster HP and Stats.

Indeed he is talking about alliance raid in this interview. I'm making the connection on what he said about "personal responsibility" with what he said about making difficult light party content. He said in this interview that the party size of alliance raids makes it easier. Therefore, a light party content would not have that luxury.

The fact that you equate "lower[ing] the amount of personal responsibility" and "players who aren't as skilled at battle content" with "carrying" is very telling.

There are countless levels of performance in the game, but you sure wouldn't know it from reading the forums, where everyone is either a perfect execution god who never presses the wrong button in a rotation, or they're a leech who just stays on the ground for an entire fight.

Well, that's the thing. "Carrying," like other words, are subjectively used. Regardless of whether it's because people are not as skilled or as knowledgeable of the fight or any other reason, the result is the same: that some people will have to compensate for others.

If you want to use another word for it, feel free.

Also, nothing he said has anything to do with adding any other type of content to the game, just that alliance raids will continue to exist.

If you read again what I said, I'm making the connection with what he is saying here with what he's said in the past.

Again I imagine the intention is the better players guide the less experienced, help them through and they appreciate it and learn from the experience. One reason we have a Mentor system too. NA/EU has taken that as "I play Ice mage and afk and the tryhards can carry me, whatever".

Our way of looking at it is rather toxic, because there's literally nothing in it for the ones carrying except punishment. You learn your class, gear up, practice the fight, do your best and are the reason a run goes smoothly and your "reward" is usually to be looked down on as an "elitist tryhard" and lose out on content you'd enjoy, such as Mythic 4 mans, or watch tanks and healers become gutted, because the community just isn't bothered to try or learn.

Oh, I agree that it is well intended and the idea is simply about accessibility. That said, while it is not a personal complaint of mine, other people have complained about having to "carry" others that they feel are not putting in the effort. Regardless of whether they're right or not, Yoshida's statement here and the resulting difficulty level of the content still effectively means that "carrying" other people is an expected result. That is just how the content is designed.

At no point did he mention carrying people in content. He just said 24-person raids were designed to be easy and relaxing. Misleading title.

I simply used a word that people have used as a complaint as the effect is the same.

[TroySoFab]

Indeed he is talking about alliance raid in this interview. I'm making the connection on what he said about "personal responsibility" with what he said about making difficult light party content. He said in this interview that the party size of alliance raids makes it easier. Therefore, a light party content would not have that luxury.


If you read again what I said, I'm making the connection with what he is saying here with what he's said in the past.

I simply used a word that people have used as a complaint as the effect is the same.

Except its not. It seems like you are making an apples and oranges comparison here. Alliance raid and a hypothetical Savage dungeon. The entire point of alliance raid is for it to be easy, and for individual performance to not mean so much. If I out dps every dps player on my team as whm, it doesn't matter because the boss will still die in about the same amount of time. If I out dps every dps in a savage or ex trial, things won't go so well. The intent behind each type of content and what is required is different.

[linayar]

Except its not. It seems like you are making an apples and oranges comparison here. Alliance raid and a hypothetical Savage dungeon. The entire point of alliance raid is for it to be easy, and for individual performance to not mean so much. If I out dps every dps player on my team as whm, it doesn't matter because the boss will still die in about the same amount of time. If I out dps every dps in a savage or ex trial, things won't go so well. The intent behind each type of content and what is required is different.

Except it is because he has said personal responsibility is the reason why he didn't want to do difficult light party content.

https://mogtalk.org/2021/05/07/inter...naoki-yoshida/

I think the chances of doing large-scale, challenging content is greater than creating high-difficulty content meant for smaller groups. It’s not that we are unable to create high-difficulty content for small groups, but currently I am a bit more hesitant with that direction overall.

In the case of a four-player high-difficulty dungeon, there is much less room for players to work with when it comes to party deaths or mistakes. If even a single party member is incapacitated or makes a mistake, it will invariably lead to a wipe, with not much leeway to save the run or come up with a creative solution. Another major reason is because our community continues to grow—naturally this is bringing in many casual players, and I believe that when looking at the bigger pictures, large-scale content will be easier for all players to get into.

So my comparison is valid. I'm saying that Yoshida is consistent in favoring contents that "will be easier for all players to get into" without having to worry as much about party deaths or mistakes.

[Goji1639]

Except it is because he has said personal responsibility is the reason why he didn't want to do difficult light party content.

https://mogtalk.org/2021/05/07/inter...naoki-yoshida/

So my comparison is valid. I'm saying that Yoshida is consistent in favoring contents that "will be easier for all players to get into" without having to worry as much about party deaths or mistakes.

This is pretty much why I have so little interest in this games endgame, and why I don't think this game will have much long-term appeal for me. Zerg style content is the lamest, trashiest content in MMO's and it makes me sad that this game is apparently so all in on it, to the point where they won't even consider smaller scale content with any substance.

Yep, and when there are too many of these type of players in content, especially endgame (max level) content, they are lucky to clear said content. What would Yoshida do if everyone stopped bothering, and didn't carry others? Just "streamline" content even more?

If everyone up and refuses to help new players through content then yes, it'll just get streamlined until it's so basic that new players can clear it without you. Carrying new players is the natural order of an MMO community, it's what keeps this game alive and funded; I don't get why so many of you constantly complain about it.

[linayar]

What would Yoshida do if everyone stopped bothering, and didn't carry others? Just "streamline" content even more?

I don't think we're in any danger of that any time soon. That said, I'll leave that answer to SE and enjoy the game as long as it's enjoyable.

This is pretty much why I have so little interest in this games endgame, and why I don't think this game will have much long-term appeal for me. Zerg style content is the lamest, trashiest content in MMO's and it makes me sad that this game is apparently so all in on it, to the point where they won't even consider smaller scale content with any substance.

That's up to you. I consider 8-player trials and raids to be small-scale enough, and they're very enjoyable on Normal difficulty with good enough rewards. That's enough of a substance from a video game for me.

[Goji1639]

That's up to you. I consider 8-player trials and raids to be small-scale enough, and they're very enjoyable on Normal difficulty with good enough rewards. That's enough of a substance from a video game for me.

Yoshi is right that it's great for new or casual players; very little personal accountability. The larger the scale the less it matters what you do. It's a double-edged sword, though; because when it doesn't matter what you do it's hard to motivate players to do anything. I'm not even sure why exactly I bothered to look up optimal rotations for any of my jobs.

[Tsukino]

Well, that's the thing. "Carrying," like other words, are subjectively used. Regardless of whether it's because people are not as skilled or as knowledgeable of the fight or any other reason, the result is the same: that some people will have to compensate for others.

If you want to use another word for it, feel free.

It's not a simple semantic difference - you are deliberately using a negatively charged term and trying to twist it into fitting something Yoshida said that doesn't have anything to do with it. Simply stating the fact that when you're 1/24 of the people your personal responsibility is lower than when you're 1/4 or 1/8 doesn't mean anyone has to or is intended to "carry" anyone else, it just means you're a smaller part of the equation. There are tons of people who feel less pressure in joining an alliance raid, even if they perform amazingly and aren't being carried in the slightest (hence the use of "approachable" in the Q/A and not "easier").

Furthermore, people making mistakes doesn't mean they're being carried. You can easily have a healer in an alliance raid keeping everyone alive and doing more damage than other players miss a cue and die, then almost instantly be raised by someone else and continue "topping the charts" so to speak. If that same healer makes the same mistake in a light party then it's probably going to be a wipe. They're not being carried in either case; the only difference is that they have 1/6 the amount of personal responsibility.

If you read again what I said, I'm making the connection with what he is saying here with what he's said in the past.

And I'm saying that your connection is bunk. If anything, saying that alliance raids are more approachable than savage raids because of the difference in the number of players is the exact opposite of saying it's hard to make difficult content for lower numbers of people - the lower personal responsibility would mean it's easier to make the content harder because it's easier to recover from mistakes.

I don't think you're a troll or anything, because your responses seem to be in earnest, but it looks a lot like you just wanted to have a discussion on "carrying" and found a recent quote you thought you could somehow twist to fit that discussion. I, and several other people, are pointing out that they are completely different things

[linayar]

It's not a simple semantic difference - you are deliberately using a negatively charged term and trying to twist it into fitting something Yoshida said that doesn't have anything to do with it. Simply stating the fact that when you're 1/24 of the people your personal responsibility is lower than when you're 1/4 or 1/8 doesn't mean anyone has to or is intended to "carry" anyone else, it just means you're a smaller part of the equation. There are tons of people who feel less pressure in joining an alliance raid, even if they perform amazingly and aren't being carried in the slightest (hence the use of "approachable" in the Q/A and not "easier").

Furthermore, people making mistakes doesn't mean they're being carried. You can easily have a healer in an alliance raid keeping everyone alive and doing more damage than other players miss a cue and die, then almost instantly be raised by someone else and continue "topping the charts" so to speak. If that same healer makes the same mistake in a light party then it's probably going to be a wipe. They're not being carried in either case; the only difference is that they have 1/6 the amount of personal responsibility.

The point is that the content is designed in such a way that players are able to help other players in a group so that the entire party doesn't have to suffer because of some people's mistake.

This, in my opinion, is a good thing. However, the result of that design is that there is not much individual player responsibility, which when taken to some extreme, end up in people complaining about having to carry others. Be that as it may, that is still within the design scope of the content where not every player has to perform well in order for the party to succeed.

And I'm saying that your connection is bunk. If anything, saying that alliance raids are more approachable than savage raids because of the difference in the number of players is the exact opposite of saying it's hard to make difficult content for lower numbers of people - the lower personal responsibility would mean it's easier to make the content harder because it's easier to recover from mistakes.

The connection is valid because of Yoshida's previous comment on the matter:

https://mogtalk.org/2021/05/07/inter...naoki-yoshida/

I think the chances of doing large-scale, challenging content is greater than creating high-difficulty content meant for smaller groups. It’s not that we are unable to create high-difficulty content for small groups, but currently I am a bit more hesitant with that direction overall.

In the case of a four-player high-difficulty dungeon, there is much less room for players to work with when it comes to party deaths or mistakes. If even a single party member is incapacitated or makes a mistake, it will invariably lead to a wipe, with not much leeway to save the run or come up with a creative solution. Another major reason is because our community continues to grow—naturally this is bringing in many casual players, and I believe that when looking at the bigger pictures, large-scale content will be easier for all players to get into.

I don't think you're a troll or anything, because your responses seem to be in earnest, but it looks a lot like you just wanted to have a discussion on "carrying" and found a recent quote you thought you could somehow twist to fit that discussion. I, and several other people, are pointing out that they are completely different things

They are not completely different as can be seen by both of Yoshida's answers to two different interviews. And I am pointing it out because certain recent threads have complained about having to carry others in duties. This is simply giving a perspective on how the content enables that.

[Goji1639]

Who put you in charge of deciding what first-timers want? Lots of people are going to be driven away if the game continues to have this reputation of being way too easy and coddling people who want everything handed to them with no effort.

Right, because this game is clearly struggling to maintain a solid player-base with that reputation, while hardcore MMO's like Wildstar are the blockbusters. Where did you get the impression that new players enjoy being dead for the majority of these pertinent story battles? New players get to die every 2 minutes to mechanics they don't understand, while groups wipe and bicker because everyone is so profoundly unhappy running this drawn out crap.

It's really not hard to piece together that new players would probably enjoy a smooth, quick run that they actually get to participate in.