Yoshida on "carrying" other people

[Ayche]

You can also cross-examine and compare things to Baldesion Arsenal too.

[DPZ2]

New gear to increase power is worthless without effort to make use of that gear.

Tell that to players who have to gear up to i490 gear for the latest patch battles, when they only currently have the level 80 gear handed out at the end of 5.0 ...

[Goji1639]

Again, only if and when the mechanics of said encounter involve more than 4 players at a time, directly or indirectly.

No, it's more limited in any situation. It's feasible to make more complicated and involved mechanics when only 4 people need to complete them successfully. When it's a crowd of people you're dealing with even individual mechanics need to stay relatively basic, or it'll be far too chaotic to follow.

Very, very little of DR's being a problem stems directly or uniquely from its being an alliance raid. Its design is a sh*tshow, sure, but for several reasons.

It being an alliance raid is definitely part of it. One issue being the scaling; the extreme deviations between runs based on how many people are using Lost Actions/Essences. Scaling off of 24 people the deviations can potentially be massive, and result in some pretty ridiculous runs. Scaling off of 4 people wouldn't be nearly as bad.

[Liam_Harper]

That should be the relaxing, idgaf content where as long as people are moving in the correct direction and pressing a few buttons everything's gonna work out fine.

I doubt it's intended to be that way. It's meant to be content aimed at players who find things like Savage above their skill level, so they can still enjoy epic fights even if they aren't the best at the game. It doesn't mean they aren't trying or don't care about contributing to the team. The game is made by Japanese developers and the mindset there is about having fun but also generally about trying your best too.

It's only NA/EU that has chosen to interpret easier content and an inclusive game design as free carries, play however you want and "idgaf".

At the very least, certain contents in this game are meant for people to "carry" others. When the community at large is not able (or perhaps is refusing) to do that, those contents will get nerfed either via the echo or some other means.

Again I imagine the intention is the better players guide the less experienced, help them through and they appreciate it and learn from the experience. One reason we have a Mentor system too. NA/EU has taken that as "I play Ice mage and afk and the tryhards can carry me, whatever".

Our way of looking at it is rather toxic, because there's literally nothing in it for the ones carrying except punishment. You learn your class, gear up, practice the fight, do your best and are the reason a run goes smoothly and your "reward" is usually to be looked down on as an "elitist tryhard" and lose out on content you'd enjoy, such as Mythic 4 mans, or watch tanks and healers become gutted, because the community just isn't bothered to try or learn.

[Goji1639]

I doubt it's intended to be that way. It's meant to be content aimed at players who find things like Savage above their skill level, so they can still enjoy epic fights even if they aren't the best at the game. It doesn't mean they aren't trying or don't care about contributing to the team. The game is made by Japanese developers and the mindset there is about having fun but also generally about trying your best too.

It's only NA/EU that has chosen to interpret easier content and an inclusive game design as free carries, play however you want and "idgaf".

The goal is for new players to be able to join the instance in gear that's barely ilvl appropriate; with a rudimentary understanding of their class, no familiarity with the raids mechanics and get carried by experienced players for however long it takes for them to become experienced themselves.

That's how it's intended to be. Lazy people looking to do nothing and be carried forever isn't what they're talking about when they say they expect veterans to carry; that's just an inevitable side affect.

What I'm saying isn't really related to that, though. I just think DF Alliance raids should be the easiest content in the game by a wide margin.

[Caurcas]

Tell that to players who have to gear up to i490 gear for the latest patch battles, when they only currently have the level 80 gear handed out at the end of 5.0 ...

The point being those players are deadweight no matter their ilvl.

[Shougun]

As long as people are vaguely trying I think the whole concept of carrying is fun. In that I mean there is nothing, imo, fun when someone is like afking at the gate, or dies immediately and then refuses to get back up so they don't have to play, as one might sometimes see in alliance raids, doesn't go through, or doesn't press any buttons at all. I'd rather play with literally a bird at the keyboard than someone who is like "going to let you do this for me, why don't you send me some gil at the end of this too - wake me up when you've done it all for me", but if someone is dying all over the floor and vaguely trying (even if not that helpful)- sounds fine and fun to me (given that the content is designed for that, obviously if you're in a savage / ultimate setting where it's not designed for that.. it's a different conversation).

[Shurrikhan]

One issue being the scaling; the extreme deviations between runs based on how many people are using Lost Actions/Essences. Scaling off of 24 people the deviations can potentially be massive, and result in some pretty ridiculous runs. Scaling off of 4 people wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Now that particular part makes no sense. Consider how much longer DR takes when only half of the raid uses their essences. Now what, exactly, would be the difference between 50% (2 of 4) and 50% (say, 12 of 24) doing so? Scaling off of fewer people just makes the chance per person more pronounced. It's otherwise irrelevant.

As long as people are vaguely trying I think the whole concept of carrying is fun. In that I mean there is nothing, imo, fun when someone is like afking at the gate, or dies immediately and then refuses to get back up so they don't have to play, as one might sometimes see in alliance raids, doesn't go through, or doesn't press any buttons at all. I'd rather play with a literally bird at the keyboard than someone who is like "going to let you do this for me", but if someone is dying all over the floor and vaguely trying- sounds fine and fun to me (given that the content is designed for that, obviously if you're in a savage / ultimate setting where it's not designed for that.. it's a different conversation).

Oh, for sure. Any Alliance Raid on Day 1 with everyone fresh is always going to be the most fun for me, but especially when they require enough engagement that helping is worthwhile (rather than the "difficulty" just coming from unintuitively timed/drawn mechanics people would die to until having happened to do it successfully themselves, no matter the explanation, or so lenient that they can just take indefinite vuln stacks without ever considering how they might avoid them), it's fun to help out. And while I usually think of "carrying" as helping only in the context of one or more raid members being effectively dead weight (i.e., not even trying), short of those circumstances, yeah, it can quite fun.

[Shougun]

Oh, for sure. Any Alliance Raid on Day 1 with everyone fresh is always going to be the most fun for me, but especially when they require enough engagement that helping is worthwhile (rather than the "difficulty" just coming from unintuitively timed/drawn mechanics people would die to until having happened to do it successfully themselves, no matter the explanation, or so lenient that they can just take indefinite vuln stacks without ever considering how they might avoid them), it's fun to help out. And while I usually think of "carrying" as helping only in the context of one or more raid members being effectively dead weight (i.e., not even trying), short of those circumstances, yeah, it can quite fun.

If one would make the distinction between dead weight (not even trying) then I might not say carrying is fun, indeed lol. I think of the more 'romantic' side of it, like rather than they were dead weight you had to carry the entire time as frustrating it's like your platoon and they did what they could and you're just honoring that and bring them to the finish because you've the ability to do so. If one tries but isn't very helpful, I kind of consider that carrying since there is a very low chance they'd make it through or make it through as quickly if someone hadn't picked the team up- and that's fun / cool to see. Not trying "do it for me, as I don't care to even feign participation" is not fun.

But yeah, I suppose different perspectives on the wording might produce different responses while ultimately being two agreeing people .

[LittleImp]

I had a player in Castrum Lacus Litore last night who hadn't done a single class quest past 30 and was exclusively spamming Rage of Halone, all the while dealing less damage than the NPCs that accompany the raid.

Until they decide to create content in the leveling experience that actually holds players to a higher standard, tuning content to where dead weight cannot be carried would only make it infinitely more frustrating unfortunately. I'd honestly rather my Nier Raid be a 30 minute snooze fest than a 3 hour wipefest for irrelevant garbage loot.