Healers Angry when PLD Clemencies

[Caurcas]

So you die to tankbusters due to a lack of heals, but expect the healers to dps anyway, instead of healing you so you actually can survive them ... ?

Its really only on PLD. DRK you can TBN between hits, WAR has a free self heal, GNB has just a bit more personal mitigation plus regen and small shield. As for the broader issue, well that's just the smell of pug savage raiding.

[Gruntler]

So you die to tankbusters due to a lack of heals, but expect the healers to dps anyway, instead of healing you so you actually can survive them ... ?

No, but the idea is supposed to be that the paladin gets value for the healer out of the random 20% damage reduction it just gets for free randomly.

Also Hallowed Ground memes.

[kaynide]

Spending a Holy Spirit to get a Glare is not always good value--especially in cases where the cost to the healer is to use Afflatus instead. So you're trading 500+ tank potency for 75 healer potency. Does that actually seem like value to you?

The Paladin self-healing costs damage, so you can't just look at it from the 'healer can spam damage' more angle, you have to include that cost.

This is why Paladin self-healing isn't the same as Warrior self-healing, which does not cost damage, and is therefore all upside.

My point was outside of endgame raids etc, that level of min-maxing is irrelevant as long as the Pld isn’t spamming. I view it the same way as healer adding dps: As long as they are doing anything to add to the dps pile, fine by me.
A difference of 10 minutes in a dungeon or whatever is a thing and in that case, sure..rotations need to be checked (probably more on the dps members...)

..., but doing fairly well but not optimal will at worst delay by a minute or two. Not that big a deal that it merits some kind of “zomg don’t use clemency”.

[technole]

Its really only on PLD. DRK you can TBN between hits, WAR has a free self heal, GNB has just a bit more personal mitigation plus regen and small shield. As for the broader issue, well that's just the smell of pug savage raiding.

Yep, I imagine there are still raid healers out there that still haven't learned from E10S boss that the E12S shared tank buster isn't just a one-button heal if it is not invuln'd.

For those who don't know E12S tank busters, it hits both tanks like the normal mode, but several times, much harder, and it requires a provoke unless it's invuln'd, so the tank don't get hit by the same debuff twice and die. The tanks with one-button heals can soften the consecutive blows. Like if the DRK is using Living Dead on theirs they can just TBN the other tank especially if it's a PLD and make the healers job easier.

Alas this is a good situation where Clemency isn't going to save a PLD alone, it's dependent more on healers doing their job and coordinating with tanks which ones they should heal. PLDs in this fight usually will eat two of the busters with CDs and Hallowed Ground one.

[Lilyth]

So you die to tankbusters due to a lack of heals, but expect the healers to dps anyway, instead of healing you so you actually can survive them ... ?

It's a matter of principle. We're talking about 4th floor current savage, there's no "I play however I want" in this context. Either you play well enough to beat the content or you get out.

You could, in theory, Clemency yourself and survive the hit while losing a considerable chunk of DPS instead of just letting the healers do it with one of their several (and much more efficient) skills... but you'd be only setting up your party for failure in the long term. A healer who can't insta-heal between two scripted tank busters while keeping decent DPS will not fare much better in the later stages of the fight and you won't be able to carry their weight forever.

[Gruntler]

My point was outside of endgame raids etc, that level of min-maxing is irrelevant as long as the Pld isn’t spamming.

That's not 'that level of min-maxing.'

It's recognizing that a Holy Spirit is worth more than a Glare.

Honestly, an attitude that some people have in this community is that any level of play beyond 'I queued up' is 'advanced level min-maxing' and that's just not true. Recognizing that a number is higher than another number is a basic part of playing this game, and you're expected to recognize it.

And bear in mind the context--it's when someone is claiming that using Holy Clemency is to free up healer dps--we're already at that context of min-maxing so suddenly going 'harumph well, we don't need to do that level of min-maxing' as a retort is just bad argumentation. If you have 'freeing up healer dps' in mind, then you're in a raid dps mindset and if you're in a raid dps mindset, Holy Spirit > Glare. It's a well meaning idea that doesn't work out.

[Catwho]

Only time I ever use it if I'm above 70% health is if I want to trigger the group shield. Otherwise it's an "oh shit" button.

[Arrius]

It's a matter of principle. We're talking about 4th floor current savage, there's no "I play however I want" in this context. Either you play well enough to beat the content or you get out.

You could, in theory, Clemency yourself and survive the hit while losing a considerable chunk of DPS instead of just letting the healers do it with one of their several (and much more efficient) skills... but you'd be only setting up your party for failure in the long term. A healer who can't insta-heal between two scripted tank busters while keeping decent DPS will not fare much better in the later stages of the fight and you won't be able to carry their weight forever.

Of course. It's easier on savage content to filter out the underperforming ones, where anything else is limited by dungeon matchmaking and the 'luck' of a healer to keep the tank alive.
While I can give them the benefit of a doubt on that when the said party is not doing mechanics properly, letting a tank die to a 'regular' tankbuster or mass pull is the reason the paladin pulls out a clemency.

It didn't happen only once, or twice.

It was enough times where they decided it was safer for them not to rely on the healers too much.

[Fynlar]

If the healer looks like they could use a hand, I use it. I don't mind doing it; nobody gives a damn about tank DPS in the content I do anyway, and to me it's just making use of my kit.

If the "angry healer" were as good at their own job as they are at paying attention to every GCD the tank is using, I wouldn't have to.

[ZedxKayn]

If the healer looks like they could use a hand, I use it. I don't mind doing it; nobody gives a damn about tank DPS in the content I do anyway, and to me it's just making use of my kit.

If the "angry healer" were as good at their own job as they are at paying attention to every GCD the tank is using, I wouldn't have to.

Tbf part of being a good healer is paying attention to what your party is up to, especially AST.