Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[Slatersev]

Just wanted to point out that "working" with the sundered is pretty much explicitly stated by Emet-Selch in the last quest of 5.0 "Shadowbringers" as a response to you saying you will stop him



The ascians are guilty of genocide from a sundered point of view and they aren't goody two shoes I assure you! But, Emet did genuinely try. As we learned from Tiamat, mankind without any ascian interference is going to fight amongst itself, the people of Meracydia fought over territory and only compromised once they went to a higher power in Bahamut who served as mediator. I can't fault Emet for believing that a world of inhabitants who kill each other at the drop of a hat is a far cry from the Utopia he once knew and loved.

Oh I know the lines, my point is that for as much as I love Emet, he can't really talk about the things he does with mortals as proof of giving it an honest shot when he was still actively working for Rejoinings the entire time.

Like, simply put, he never states he put his plans on hold to try to really see what the Sundered life could be. He actively worked to manipulate them the entire time, so even when he was "trying", it can't really be read as a fully sincere attempt because there was never a time where he wasn't sabotaging them.

It's like joining a company wanting and expecting it to fail, actively working to make sure it does and then pointing at it and going

"See, it could never work". It's simply impossible to take it on good faith.

Which is kinda the point, for as much depth as they gave him, his words are obviously supposed to be tinged with his bias'. Were not supposed to take literally everything he said at face value. Especially with things like YoshiP pointing out at fanfest we haven't gotten Hydaelyn/Venat's side of the story

His Moral Relativism line for example, an amazing line but he contradicts it alot, and his short story especially makes it pretty obvious he's actively lying to himself about it.

Which in some ways makes him more sympathetic, and in some ways makes him worse, because on some level he knows what he tells himself isn't true but he is still using it as a justification.

It's really complicated, messy and contradictory, all on purpose by the writers, and its great. Makes him a fantastically nuanced character. But all that nuance doesn't mean he can't also be full of shit at times, and when it comes to his claims about sincerely trying with mortals, he totally is. But again, that's what makes him great

[HiraishinNoJutsu]

Oh I know the lines, my point is that for as much as I love Emet, he can't really talk about the things he does with mortals as proof of giving it an honest shot when he was still actively working for Rejoinings the entire time.

Like, simply put, he never states he put his plans on hold to try to really see what the Sundered life could be. He actively worked to manipulate them the entire time, so even when he was "trying", it can't really be read as a fully sincere attempt because there was never a time where he wasn't sabotaging them.

It's like joining a company wanting and expecting it to fail, actively working to make sure it does and then pointing at it and going

"See, it could never work". It's simply impossible to take it on good faith.

Which is kinda the point, for as much depth as they gave him, his words are obviously supposed to be tinged with his bias'. Were not supposed to take literally everything he said at face value. Especially with things like YoshiP pointing out at fanfest we haven't gotten Hydaelyn/Venat's side of the story

His Moral Relativism line for example, an amazing line but he contradicts it alot, and his short story especially makes it pretty obvious he's actively lying to himself about it.

Which in some ways makes him more sympathetic, and in some ways makes him worse, because on some level he knows what he tells himself isn't true but he is still using it as a justification.

It's really complicated, messy and contradictory, all on purpose by the writers, and its great. Makes him a fantastically nuanced character. But all that nuance doesn't mean he can't also be full of shit at times, and when it comes to his claims about sincerely trying with mortals, he totally is. But again, that's what makes him great

Really good post! I also love Emet's writing and I do hope that we get so see some of him in Endwalker.

We know he hasn't fully dissolved in the mass of souls that is the life stream and he still retains consciousness and can be called upon as we see during Seat of Sacrifice. If our Lightwarden charged blade of of light knocked the tempering out of Emet and if we have a means to call upon him with the Azem stone I would love to pick the brain of "Hades" so to speak. Not shackled by his duty just the man from Amaurot with an affinity for the afterlife.

[Cilia]

[Emet-Selch's] Moral Relativism line for example, an amazing line but he contradicts it alot, and his short story especially makes it pretty obvious he's actively lying to himself about it.

Which in some ways makes him more sympathetic, and in some ways makes him worse, because on some level he knows what he tells himself isn't true but he is still using it as a justification.

It's really complicated, messy and contradictory, all on purpose by the writers, and its great. Makes him a fantastically nuanced character. But all that nuance doesn't mean he can't also be full of shit at times, and when it comes to his claims about sincerely trying with mortals, he totally is. But again, that's what makes him great

Exactly. Exactly.

For all of his talk, Emet is pretty transparently lying to himself and not really acting on good faith. This is best demonstrated in Amaurot, when he starts up the Final Days recreation for the dungeon as a test of the Scions' mettle; when they prevail against his expectations he just says their performance was underwhelming and they still aren't worthy. He sets people up to fail so when they do so he can just say "See? Still not as great as the Ancients!" and if they succeed he just moves the goalposts.

What makes him (and the Ascians in general) particularly tragic is not what happened to them, but their belief they can go back to the good old days of Amaurot if they just complete the Rejoinings and have Zodiark do his disco; the Sound, and Zodiark's summoning to stop it, created an irreconcilable rift in Amaurotine society. Even if they succeeded, it's very, very unlikely things could go back to the way they were before. (I'd even go so far as to argue at least some Ancients would be extremely unhappy with the price paid to bring them back and revolt by summoning a check against Zodiark that's even more powerful than Hydaelyn.) Elidibus realizes the folly of his crusade in his final moments, bound to it as he may be.

It's part of what makes them such wonderful antagonists, in my opinion. They are given to the same vices they condemn humanity for, tragically fighting for a cause that was lost before they even started. Perhaps back in the days of Amaurot the world was a utopia... but that time has long since passed and will never come back, Rejoined world and resurrected Ancients or no. While their motivations are sympathetic, considering that...

This bears reiterating: Zodiark is neither good nor evil. He is only as good or evil as his creators, who despite their declarations to the contrary are demonstrably not perfect beings. (The same applies to Hydaelyn as a corollary, despite attempts to demonize her for her own failings.)