Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

[KizuyaKatogami]

I've finished the storyline through the current patch, yes. I also realize that the viewpoints of both Elidibus and Emet Selk are not particularly reliable, especially in light of the fact that Zodiark has been without a heart, and it unclear whether Elidibus left before or after the Sundering.

To HiraishinNoJutsu's point: Sacrificing "newly minted lives" after the Final Days are over is an extremely dubious thing to do for beings who are as Moral and Righteous and Upstanding as the Ancients appear to think themselves. Then again, Star Trek has come across plenty of gods and godlings with the same deficient moral compass, so why not?

"We didn't know what the outcome would be, but when it was finished we had no use for the lives created by Zodiark in the process of our Salvation, so we were going to try turning them in for the deposit." is a pathetic, but typical, excuse for godlings.

It’s not unclear. It’s stated he left before the sundering. He left to calm the masses. This is stated as well.As for the new lives, we dont know the circumstances of them that dictated why the Ancients chose to sacrifice them.It's one of the many unknowns currently in the story so we can't make judgements on it until it's confirmed.

[KizuyaKatogami]

“Unnatural” is so incredibly loaded, I will never agree with such a description of human life.

And what right do the Ancients have to decide what lives are worth living? That’s not a decision for anyone to make for anyone else. Not to mention Emets own words on the topic, where he doesn’t even recognize the humanity and personhood of the sundered. I’m supposed to believe they’re doing that out of the kindness of their own hearts?

Hell, even by their own definition of personhood they were more than happy to sacrifice untold innocent people to bring back their friends. Yet these are the ones to be trusted to with the power of gods?




He tried to DESTROY her sense of self to allow her other memories dominance. He didn’t offer her choice like the WoL or Ryne did. At no point in the story did we ever dissuade her from making her own decisions. Mitron did. There’s no both sidesing it. He forcibly merged with her, had her attempt to destroy her memories of Ryne, and then fought to death to make sure he could have her. Gaia’s not the Ascian her soul was. She’s her own person with thoughts, feelings and ideas. No one but Mitron denied her that.

She LITERALLY cheers you on as you fight to free her!





And the game also takes effort to show that the sundered have and will surpass the unsundered in various ways, because like living beings we are flawed and virtuous in our own ways.

You can refuse to agree all you want. It’s something even the devs have agreed on, that the sundering and its inhabitants are abnormal. They’re fractured beings with degraded souls. Nothing more.

[EaraGrace]

You can refuse to agree all you want. It’s something even the devs have agreed on, that the sundering and its inhabitants are abnormal. They’re fractured beings with degraded souls. Nothing more.

That’s you taking the position of a character the devs have written. Nowhere have they said that that is objectively true and have repeatedly written characters to argue against that point. Stop trying to dismiss this as a settled matter, it’s not.

And by your definition the whole world of Hydaelyn post-Zodiark is unnatural, as it was the Ancients rewrote the natural laws to keep their society alive. Thus it is “unnatural” as well.

[Kuroka]

It’s something even the devs have agreed on, that the sundering and its inhabitants are abnormal. They’re fractured beings with degraded souls. Nothing more.

Ive been thinking about this a lot... So Omega and Midgardsormr were way stronger then any mortal bc they had full "souls", because they werent only x/14 fragments. So we can assume IF there are more Alien creatures we'd be pretty fucked if they one day visit us i guess huh? I really wonder if at one future expension this will come into play...

[Theodric]

One last quick post before I go to sleep...

This is very much a case of multiple truths at play.

The Sundering did reduce those it struck into lesser lifeforms. They're weaker, lost their memory of what once was, are more prone to sickness and live shorter lives.

Emet-Selch views the Sundered as lesser beings as a result of those traits in a manner not dissimilar to how a modern day human views a colony of ants.

The Sundered view themselves as worthy of living, flawed as they may be.

All three of the above are applicable and true, which ties into the matter of the thread's premise. It's all a matter of perspective, not at all black or white and the characters involved are all dealing with circumstances that are very bleak and unfortunate.

Some of my favourite characters are Sundered beings - such as Hien, Magnai, Thancred, Varis and Regula. I'd assume many here arguing from Emet-Selch's point of view have Sundered characters amongst their favourites too.

[EaraGrace]

One last quick post before I go to sleep...

This is very much a case of multiple truths at play.

The Sundering did reduce those it struck into lesser lifeforms. They're weaker, lost their memory of what once was, are more prone to sickness and live shorter lives.

That’s where the disagreement lies I believe. I do not think that makes them any lesser, and certainly no less deserving of life.

I do not disagree over what the Sundering did, just what it means for the lives of those sundered.

[_Koneko_]

who are the ancients to decide what is lesser they are not gods they are children playing with powers that they do not understand their rampant abuse of their creation powers is pretty apparent if anything the hubris of the ancients is on full display everytime hades opens his mouth immortals are always shown as truly lesser beings they lack compassion and the ability to truly feel empathy because they never had to endure what the "lesser beings" had to endure even emet's grand experiment was bound to fail because even as Solus zos Galvus he was never in any real danger he was a immortal being playing at being mortal and failing every step of the way

[YianKutku]

A potential issue is that most of the questions I've seen going "Is Zodiark good or evil" are actually phrasing the question incorrectly. I assume this is because the posters don't actually realize they're not asking the question they actually intend to ask.

A more proper formulation would be "Is Zodiark evil, or not-evil". "Not-evil" does not necessarily mean "good". "Good" and "evil" require actions and intent, and it would convince me if someone were to argue that Zodiark hasn't had a chance to display either, and thus his morality should be "unknown". In fact, that's my current stance, along with the added opinion that it doesn't actually matter, because we don't have enough information on what Zodiark actually did (we know the basic outline and the consequences, but nothing else).

Because in all the discussions, I've never seen anyone argue that Zodiark is actually unadulterated good. It's always "flawed and used as a tool" at best, rather than "yes, Zodiark did the right thing, and is continuing to do the right thing". So already the question "Is Zodiark good or evil" has dismissed the "good" part. And "it's complicated" avoids the question while also being a more accurate and useful answer, which means the question is incorrect.

[Cilia]

Just a few things to say before getting back to it:

1. If we want to operate under the dictate of there being no such thing as good or evil, that has to apply across the board, in every context, no exceptions.

2. "Everything is a matter of perspective." That may be so but something to keep in mind is that "Everyone thinks they're the hero of their own story." By this I mean nobody considers themselves to be in the wrong; even if they break their own moral code, they will come up with some justification or excuse as to why that transgression was acceptable. What makes someone a genuine hero is their impact on the lives of others; if someone makes decisions without considering those, can you really call them a hero? (See: Handsome Jack, main antagonist of Borderlands 2, who despite proclaiming himself to be a hero in no way acts the part from anyone's perspective but his own.)

3. If everything is a matter of perspective, there is no point in discussing these sorts of things since people have incompatible viewpoints on topics. Irreconcilable differences exist; that's not a bad thing but telling people why their viewpoint is wrong is unproductive. (inb4 "But you've said something to that effect!" Yes, and it was wrong of me to do so. We all make mistakes; I own up to mine.)

Now.

A potential issue is that most of the questions I've seen going "Is Zodiark good or evil" are actually phrasing the question incorrectly. I assume this is because the posters don't actually realize they're not asking the question they actually intend to ask.

A more proper formulation would be "Is Zodiark evil, or not-evil". "Not-evil" does not necessarily mean "good". "Good" and "evil" require actions and intent, and it would convince me if someone were to argue that Zodiark hasn't had a chance to display either, and thus his morality should be "unknown". In fact, that's my current stance, along with the added opinion that it doesn't actually matter, because we don't have enough information on what Zodiark actually did (we know the basic outline and the consequences, but nothing else).

Because in all the discussions, I've never seen anyone argue that Zodiark is actually unadulterated good. It's always "flawed and used as a tool" at best, rather than "yes, Zodiark did the right thing, and is continuing to do the right thing". So already the question "Is Zodiark good or evil" has dismissed the "good" part. And "it's complicated" avoids the question while also being a more accurate and useful answer, which means the question is incorrect.

I think a more succinct way to put it would be "Is Zodiark evil or not?" to which the answer would be... yes, "We don't know." Everything Zodiark is known to have done or intended to do was at the behest of the Convocation; his own will is unknown, assuming he even has one.

Sticking to the above though, whether or not Zodiark is good or evil depends on whether or not you personally agree with or benefit from his actions, which... again, remain unknown due to everything he's ever done having been at the behest of the Convocation. Even what he did at the behest of the Convocation is good or evil depending on whether or not you personally agree with or benefited from his actions. (Rewriting the laws of the star to stop the Sound and prevent its destruction? Good. Reconditioning the star to support life? Good. [Planning to] devour new lives to bring back old ones? Well, that's really questionable...)

[KizuyaKatogami]

Just an overall thing that i feel should be pointed out about this topic is that, the devs have stated that there is not good, there is no bad in the Amano art, depicting Hydaelyn and Zodiark. We can then tie something like this into what Yoshi P said in i believeeee 5.2? or 5.3 i honestly can’t remember, where he stated the primals themselves aren’t that important or their story won’t be explored as much, but the summoners and hearts are what’s more important. Unfortunately, there’s still a lot of mystery around the hearts. Venat absolutely, Elidibus we at least have some insight on but even then the actual functions and going-ons of it are unknown. In the end though i think it’s going to fall on whether we depict the hearts as good or evil and well, that’s something we pretty much have to figure out in 6.0. They do kind of hint a bit however that the primals seem to take after their hearts. Elidibus’ short story talking about how “caring and kind he was” and wanting to bring about salvation thus ending in Zodiark being a primal to bring about salvation(and even showing where it came from in his trial). In Hydaelyns case since Venat is such a mystery the only thing we have to go off of is Hydaelyn and Venat sharing the same VA(in jp at least, dunno about the others). But it will be interesting to see how it ties into it at the end.