Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[KizuyaKatogami]

So basically I'm getting that it either never happens or is, at worst, basically the result of a game of telephone where one guy sometime years ago on reddit said "I got banned for helping!" (when he was probably not exactly being helpful) ended up growing into some sort of old wives tale about everyone who ever helps getting reported and banned. Which is pretty much what I expected. It would be nice if it stopped being used as an excuse.

I mean we don’t know. That’s the thing it’s based on a lot of he said she said. But the fact of the matter is it’s blossomed into an actual fear that people have. That shouldn’t exist in the first place. There are people that give genuine advice without snark and are met with hostility. This is something proven with numerous threads opened about it. We shouldn’t have even gotten to this point in the first place but unfortunately it’s escalated to where people have a fear of being reported of chatting to someone in game and saying the wrong thing to set someone off.

[Awha]

So basically I'm getting that it either never happens or is, at worst, basically the result of a game of telephone where one guy sometime years ago on reddit said "I got banned for helping!" (when he was probably not exactly being helpful) ended up growing into some sort of old wives tale about everyone who ever helps getting reported and banned. Which is pretty much what I expected. It would be nice if it stopped being used as an excuse.

Problem with any action is a permanent strike on your account. Why risk it?

The reality is that within this game for some reason tone plays such a major role in how people receive information. The info can be honest and true but if it is blunt someone can take offense and with how vague the ToS is worded that offense could be seen as harassment especially if it is given in a blunt manner.

I once told a BLM "Freeze spam and keeping thunder up is better damage at this level range." The person got extremely offended because my tone was harsh. Even the group said it was far too abrasive. So I mean sure it is unlikely any action will be taken for just giving advice but meh not worth the risk imo with his vague one selective GM's can be with punishment.

[LittleImp]

So basically I'm getting that it either never happens or is, at worst, basically the result of a game of telephone where one guy sometime years ago on reddit said "I got banned for helping!" (when he was probably not exactly being helpful) ended up growing into some sort of old wives tale about everyone who ever helps getting reported and banned. Which is pretty much what I expected. It would be nice if it stopped being used as an excuse.

It's easier to say you're afraid of getting banned than diving into the shifting demographics and resulting degeneration of community attitudes. There're totally legitimate reasons people are less and less willing to offer advice.

I went from prolifically running learning parties and managing teaching discords to pretty much no longer participating in the content teaching scene because I was fed up with increasingly playing mental illness roulette every time I tried to mentor someone. I can only sit through hurled abuse from adults with unmanaged anxiety disorders for so long before I'm emotionally exhausted myself, and I say that as someone with unmedicated GAD.

I have an extensive understanding of exactly how these people are feeling when they go off, and it gives me even less sympathy that they're unable to exercise enough control to avoid harming other people.

[BunniEclair]

It's easier to say you're afraid of getting banned than diving into the shifting demographics and resulting degeneration of community attitudes. There're totally legitimate reasons people are less and less willing to offer advice.

I went from prolifically running learning parties and managing teaching discords to pretty much no longer participating in the content teaching scene because I was fed up with increasingly playing mental illness roulette every time I tried to mentor someone. I can only sit through hurled abuse from adults with unmanaged anxiety disorders for so long before I'm emotionally exhausted myself, and I say that as someone with unmedicated GAD.

I have an extensive understanding of exactly how these people are feeling when they go off, and it gives me even less sympathy that they're unable to exercise enough control to avoid harming other people.

This is a legitimate reason and one I can sympathize with. There have been times I have either just left or disbanded a farm group because I simply didn’t have the energy to deal with explaining what went wrong and where to a bunch of people who were already obviously on edge. Sometimes it’s just not worth the headache, even if it’s the “nice” thing to do.

I’ve never been worried about being banned for giving advice or offering suggestions. However, worrying about how the other person will take it and the resulting interactions is a legitimate reason some people may choose not to do so. Often the more painless route is to just deal with the poor playing and escape when you can. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Saefinn]

Problem with any action is a permanent strike on your account. Why risk it?

The reality is that within this game for some reason tone plays such a major role in how people receive information. The info can be honest and true but if it is blunt someone can take offense and with how vague the ToS is worded that offense could be seen as harassment especially if it is given in a blunt manner.

I once told a BLM "Freeze spam and keeping thunder up is better damage at this level range." The person got extremely offended because my tone was harsh. Even the group said it was far too abrasive. So I mean sure it is unlikely any action will be taken for just giving advice but meh not worth the risk imo with his vague one selective GM's can be with punishment.

It also comes down to risk assessment. If they risk is ridiculously low and something bad happening is high improbable, then it'd take considerable bad luck. We know GM's are people and that they make mistakes, which is a risk factor. We know some people might take things the wrong way. That's a risk factor and that tone doesn't always travel, which can be a risk factor. But as far as I understand it, the risk of having action taken against you is very, very slim.

There's life risks we take every day, but often the chances of anything happening are so slim, it's not worth worrying about.

And any claims of being wrongfully moderated I always take with a pinch of salt as somebody who, a) has been a moderator in multiple communities, and b) has worked customer complaints, it's rare that people will tell the full story and often or not, there's a key detail in that story they've left. I've seen it here when people post about them here. It's why I got frustrated with that one venue claiming they were moderated for advertising RP in the PF even though it's okay to. As an RPer that obviously makes me concerned, but once we got to the bottom of it, these guys were an ERP venue and tried everything they could to hide that fact and suddenly it made sense, it wasn't advertising RP that was the problem.

This is a legitimate reason and one I can sympathize with. There have been times I have either just left or disbanded a farm group because I simply didn’t have the energy to deal with explaining what went wrong and where to a bunch of people who were already obviously on edge. Sometimes it’s just not worth the headache, even if it’s the “nice” thing to do.

I’ve never been worried about being banned for giving advice or offering suggestions. However, worrying about how the other person will take it and the resulting interactions is a legitimate reason some people may choose not to do so. Often the more painless route is to just deal with the poor playing and escape when you can. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I mean, I'll generally just do it. If it's obvious they're not going to response well, then maybe not. But taking my Good King Moggle mog in Trials roulette the other day, people thanked me for the help, one of the people in question was a mentor, people were generally quite courteous, first pull was a wipe, second pull people listened and it was a smooth clear and then I was given 3 coms and not a single complain.

Sure it sucks when people take it the wrong way, but I find it's enough of a minority that it's still worth doing. Because I think helping players improve and help them understand how things work better works out better for the community in the long run. How people approach it is also good for a better community IMO.

Fine if people don't want to risk it, naturally it's their prerogative, but it's not as scary and doom and gloom as it gets made out to be.

[Awha]

It also comes down to risk assessment. If they risk is ridiculously low and something bad happening is high improbable, then it'd take considerable bad luck. We know GM's are people and that they make mistakes, which is a risk factor. We know some people might take things the wrong way. That's a risk factor and that tone doesn't always travel, which can be a risk factor. But as far as I understand it, the risk of having action taken against you is very, very slim.

There's life risks we take every day, but often the chances of anything happening are so slim, it's not worth worrying about.

And any claims of being wrongfully moderated I always take with a pinch of salt as somebody who, a) has been a moderator in multiple communities, and b) has worked customer complaints, it's rare that people will tell the full story and often or not, there's a key detail in that story. I've seen it here when people post about them here. It's why I got frustrated with that one venue claiming they were moderated for advertising RP in the PF even though it's okay to. As an RPer that obviously makes me concerned, but once we got to the bottom of it, these guys were an ERP venue and tried everything they could to hide that fact and suddenly it made sense, it wasn't advertising RP that was the problem.



I mean, I'll generally just do it. If it's obvious they're not going to response well, then maybe not. But taking my Good King Moggle mog in Trials roulette the other day, people thanked me for the help, one of the people in question was a mentor, people were generally quite courteous, first pull was a wipe, second pull people listened and it was a smooth clear and then I was given 3 coms and not a single complain.

Sure it sucks when people take it the wrong way, but I find it's enough of a minority that it's still worth doing. Because I think helping players improve and help them understand how things work better works out better for the community in the long run. How people approach it is also good for a better community IMO.

Fine if people don't want to risk it, naturally it's their prerogative, but it's not as scary and doom and gloom as it gets made out to be.

Sure life is full of risks but let us be real I am not willing to risk my account just to help someone improve in this game no matter how slim, I rather just go down my silent votekick and call it a day. I operate on a simple principle if I a would not be happy with the consequence no matter how slim I will not do the action. I will gladly take action on my account for me being an ass, but to get action for just helping someone no matter how slim it will trip me up. :P

[Penthea]

This is what I wanna know too, after 8 years of being helpful, I've yet to run into any problems like this. I've had a handful of poor attitude people and that's it.

It's why I get the feeling it's more down to a how and not a what. Because normally I find those who aren't very constructive or are rude or put people down tend not to think what they do is any of that.

And it'd be very odd for GM's to moderate people for helping people when the devs are introduced a whole system designed with the intention of helping people and encouraging people to help others...granted it's a broken system but either way, it's intended for helping people.

The bolded part is why I'm disinclined to believe stuff like "you can get banned for telling someone to refresh their dots!". If SE did not want strangers to give advice on how to play they wouldn't have created the mentor system. Having the crown doesn't magically make you immune to any sort of punishment. It's not a get out of jail card.

I've seen some people say "I was only trying to help" when their idea of help was "omfg you need to stack not stand in China". Sure that's telling the person they need to stack, but it's far from being a polite way to put it. I've had to tell quite a few people to do basic things like turn on tank stance and I have managed to avoid punishment even when the player didn't take the advice/request well. You're not going to get in trouble with a GM for saying "please turn on tank stance" or "we need both dps to do aoe".

[Nayout]

For a lot of people internet is just for facebook, mails, and buying things on Amazon. They don't even know there is patch notes and an official forum, and even less that there is some lengthy tutorials on the mmo they launch to relax after work.

And even if they were reading them, avoiding some problems like the tutorials being outdated (not so long ago i did see someone worrying about how to get the old cross-class skills removed in 4.0) or being in a foreign language they don't understand, that doesn't mean they will succeed to play properly. They can have physical disabilities that prevents them to do so, like in this QTE event who was only asking to smash some randoms buttons during a mere ten seconds (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ore-QTE-please.). Or simply not being able to remember for long what rotation to do because (it might get as a shock to you) not everybody has a good memory.

Oh please, if you have questions, ask in the chat
That the game is not available in your language? use a translator or join dozens of groups in your language about the game and look for a FC that supports you on your journey as many do.

Do you have any psychological or perhaps physical problems such as some kind of disability? TELL ME, I don't have to guess and I don't have to know that you have a problem, if you tell me perfect I understand you and I will support you as best I can.

[Tyssyn]

I keep reading all these threads on how there are so MANY bad players... where? While I don't do savage/ultimate and rarely do EX, I have not once run into a BOT in a dungeon or raid that I know of, and rarely see someone super horrible at the job they choose to play. I'm on the Mos Eisley of Data Centers too, I don't even seem to run into really rude or toxic players either. Most runs tend to be fairly quiet, everyone saying hi, getting down to the business of running the dungeon/raid.. maybe someone saying oh hey, I'm looking for X piece of gear, if none of you need it, could you let me have it... then a thank you, or gg or something when it's done. If I've had an exceptionally bad time zigging when I should zag ::glowers at Red Girl and her inflorescence or however it's spelled:: I usually apologize to the healers before they leave. I've had some spectacularly bad times with dying especially in the nier raids, not once has anyone been nasty to me about it. So.. where is all this elitism/toxicity that everyone is so concerned about?

[Nayout]

I keep reading all these threads on how there are so MANY bad players... where? While I don't do savage/ultimate and rarely do EX, I have not once run into a BOT in a dungeon or raid that I know of, and rarely see someone super horrible at the job they choose to play. I'm on the Mos Eisley of Data Centers too, I don't even seem to run into really rude or toxic players either. Most runs tend to be fairly quiet, everyone saying hi, getting down to the business of running the dungeon/raid.. maybe someone saying oh hey, I'm looking for X piece of gear, if none of you need it, could you let me have it... then a thank you, or gg or something when it's done. If I've had an exceptionally bad time zigging when I should zag ::glowers at Red Girl and her inflorescence or however it's spelled:: I usually apologize to the healers before they leave. I've had some spectacularly bad times with dying especially in the nier raids, not once has anyone been nasty to me about it. So.. where is all this elitism/toxicity that everyone is so concerned about?

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