Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Rinhi]

you must be getting very lucky that the people you give tips to are that receptive to them because 9 out of 10 times I ask a cure 1 whm in lvl 50+ content that cure 2 heals more and is more mp efficient, they either ignore it, acknowledge it and continue to spam it or rebuff you, not even getting into healers who refuse to dps and get legitimately upset at you if you ask them do something
same with regen or even lilies, same with asking DPSes to use their AoE skills, no matter how nice I am or other people in the instance are, it's usually getting ignored and the bad player will continue to play badly and not even attempt to improve
and because the game is designed to be cleared by absolutely everyone, these people can clear content they shouldn't be able to clear simply because they're getting carried
this is how you get cure spammers in expert and lvl 80 alliance raids, you can be the best role model possible and be ultra nice with your advice but these players absolutely do not want to get better because why should they? they'll 'win' anyway and they'll feel proud for their 'good' run, even if they were being detrimental
tanks are usually the exception to this, as they'll use cooldowns if you remind them they exist

[Lanadra]

I can only speak of my experiences, but I guess there's something I need to point out first.

No, these are not every single group. If I have to be honest, it's probably not even half of them, you're right on that.

HOWEVER...

It doesn't have to be. It just has to be enough for a player to consider the possibility enough. I remember specifically in 4.1 I stopped doing all group content for the patch, because I just couldn't take the chance anymore. The straw breaking the camel's back being Right here.

As far as things are concerned, this was fine, perfectly acceptable playing, that was enough to continue content, because I had to push whatever I could with my MNK to get through it. Sure, like I said, not even half the parties are like this, but if I end up at any point questioning if queuing is worth it, even with just a small chance of this, then something certainly is wrong.

Enabling isn't okay. Players should be expected to at least contribute if they're gonna do group content. I don't see how that's ever a bad thing.

Just read your OP in the thread you linked. I agree with that, your points and how you go about communicating your frustrations about it. Hell, I don't really disagree that much with the points here in this thread either, namely, basic competence being something one should be able to expect. I mostly disagree with how Caurcas words it and how they've generally conducted themselves throughout this thread.. which makes me think they're the issue just as much as the people they're complaining about are.

There's ways of offering advise or commenting about subpar performance, we've all encountered the pig heads who won't listen no matter what you say or how polite and considerate a way you try to say it in, and yes, they're beyond irritating. But a lot of people complaining in this thread come off like they do legit have their standards set too high for normal content or that they simply went about communicating their 'advise' and 'feedback' in ways that no one is going to take well. Namely, sarcasm, complaining or being snarky. I know I wouldn't respond well to snarky comments from someone in a DF party either.

On another note, there's also things people can do themselves to avoid the bottom tier that apparently some of the people here deal with 95% of the time they use DF.. queue with a premade or use PF. DF is a case of 'you get what you get, make it work'.

[Awha]

As that's my post, then I will deign to respond.

You're missing a very big part of the point (and something that I expanded on in another pots), and that is beginners often start of performing highly subpar. Because they are, of course, beginners. The game doesn't really give you much in the way of tutelage with regards to performing optimally, or at least what would be considered standard by the community. Active help and tooltips exist, but the former is something that most people ignore in my experience and the latter can sometimes (as in the case of silently updating tooltips and freecure) be misleading. Hall of the novice teaches super basic practices, some of which is outdated and/or harmful (it basically teaches single pulling).

Locking DF to tiers would case entrenchment of 'bad' practices amongst 'bad' players which would make it harder to 'graduate' and qualify to the 'upper tiers'. On that thread, running as a 'good' player, being saddled with a 'bad' player is not that big of a burden most of the time (20 minute run instead of 12? NBD) and that comes with the bonus that 'good' players will serve as role models for the 'bad' players. And that is what people should strive to be -- role models, to show new players how it's done, to push them to do their best while reassuring them that they can do it. But 'bads' being consistently grouped with 'bads' gives them little room to grow and instead saddles them with unnecessary frustration far greater than duties taking 8 minutes longer to complete than normal. Chances are this will result in more people leaving instead of learning, as well as create an expectation where duties are going to be horrible anyways.

I've stopped a few times to help newbies better grasp their kit, and got gratitude most of the time (sometimes another party member would become impatient, but hush -- i'm teaching the newbie). But even verbal instruction is not the limit of this -- a good tank mass-pulling a dungeon will show a DPS how 'things are done' so that they can do the same when they pick up tanking, for example. And a dps or tank witnessing firsthand the glory of Holy might tempt them to use the skill when they are the healer. That brings me to this point:



Be a role model. Offer help. You can't just force people to learn, but you can set an example for them to look up to. That is how you encourage people to play at an 'adequate' level and have them stop being a burden. Does it always work? No - there are people who will resist, but not everyone will and that's what matters. Even people who at first 'resist' might later on 'wisen up' and learn.

People underperforming at 80 was brought up but, again, even at 80 it's possible to be misinformed and/or not grasp fully how a job works, or they might have known but forget due to disuse. For heavens' sake, a person I know personally adviced me to not expend the heat gauge on trash pulls and both of us were at 80. BLM confused me enough that I levelled it to 80 through trusts just to get it out of the way and while I once knew NIN I have forgotten how to play it. Someone trying to get back into a job they had not played in forever will mess up badly even with prior study. People need to calm down.



This whole thread does remind me though. I don't coddle: I put any sprouts I am helping through trials of fire, pushing them on pulls that would normally be reserved for veterans. The reason? I want them to commit errors and learn while in the presence of a friendly party who is willing to help so that they won't be making these same errors in the company of the elitists such as those who have aired their laundry in this thread, who may see no issue in kicking/attacking/insulting them and otherwise discourage them from playing further simply because 'bah, this person is being a leech! screw them!'

I cannot speak for others, but I disagree with your view but I do encourage you and others to play how they desire.

Maybe I am misunderstanding but the reason for why someone is playing poorly is largely moot. If someone cares on a personal level great and they are willing to help them improve even better. Though the community is not under any obligation to help others improve.

Not wanting to help someone improve does not inherently make one an asshole, ( maybe I am reading too much into but your post gives off a slight judgemental tone towards those that do not wish to help others improve if not I am apologize ) in my case yes I am an asshole, but for others in the thread they seem more like tired individuals who have had poor experiences when it came to helping others.

Sure your experience in helping others may not be the same but should we discredit another experience because we overall do not share the outcomes?

Overall I do agree having a MMR for DF would be a horrible idea for the health of longevity of the game for many reasons.

Though I also do not think it is fair to expect people just to deal with things they may not enjoy while playing a video game. Sure we could queue with friends or create a PF but I think the only reason people advocate heavily for such things is because people know it will not happen enemas, we crave the convenience too much. Though if it did it in theory could lead to the same effect as an MMR system. Thankfully it will never happen.

Though I do think expanding the reasons for removal from groups to reflect difference of play style would go a long way to improve the experience across the board, also maube make the vote system a tad more fair and allow for the one being voted a chance to vote. So in that case a party would need 3 votes for it to pass. So at that point it would require a true majority for a vote to pass. Sure it might impact those couple groups a tad when you get two people feeding into one another.

Personally I do not think getting removed from a party should be viewed as a personal attack or viewed as abuse if it is for a difference of play style.

I get this is an MMO and I get you will run into many different types of players and everyone is a person behind the character. I just wish people would also understand that when someone removes another from a group it is often not a personal jab, and dwelling too much on the kick is senseless because probably after they removed ya they either forgot all about ya or are mocking you. So what is the point.

Long story short performance is subjective, so do not expect SE to get involved to make your experience with others better. We have tools in place so use them. Sure some may judge you for using them in such ways but you cannot control what others think or do. Just as they cannot either.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

snip.

Why yes, I do hold in severe judgement players who: 1) complain about 'bad players' and 2) do not wish to help others improve

If you dislike 'bad players' so much you would like to complain about them, then you might as well do something about it by helping people improve. That would result in, over time, less 'bad players'. If you complain about bad players, do not offer help, but instead insult them elsewhere or remove them for causing you inconvenience then you are toxic, plain and simple.

you must be getting very lucky that the people you give tips to are that receptive to them

My mostly positive experiences with aiding might have to do with luck, or it might be selective memory (I had seen people who ignore / rebuff advice), but for the most part just speak nicely and chances are someone's going to listen.

more like tired individuals

OP sounds like your factory-standard elitist no matter how hard they try to 'seem humble' or say 'my expectations are not THAT high'. Some of the others sound like they don't know how to say things nicely / think it's oppressive to 'have to say' things nicely and wonder why people don't take their advice well. Others do sound like they do mean well but have seen one too many 'you don't pay my sub' people. The last group I sympathise with --- the former two, not so much.

[Awha]

Why yes, I do hold in severe judgement players who: 1) complain about 'bad players' and 2) do not wish to help others improve

If you dislike 'bad players' so much you would like to complain about them, then you might as well do something about it by helping people improve. That would result in, over time, less 'bad players'. If you complain about bad players, do not offer help, but instead insult them elsewhere or remove them for causing you inconvenience then you are toxic, plain and simple.



My mostly positive experiences with aiding might have to do with luck, or it might be selective memory (I had seen people who ignore / rebuff advice), but for the most part just speak nicely and chances are someone's going to listen.




OP sounds like your factory-standard elitist no matter how hard they try to 'seem humble' or say 'my expectations are not THAT high'. Some of the others sound like they don't know how to say things nicely / think it's oppressive to 'have to say' things nicely and wonder why people don't take their advice well. Others do sound like they do mean well but have seen one too many 'you don't pay my sub' people. The last group I sympathise with --- the former two, not so much.

Overall I get where you are coming from. Sure if everyone was far more understanding this would not be an issue. Though unfortunately reality is not like that.
The last part is what I do not understand slightly off topic, but that stance reminds me of the issue my little brother had in school a couple years back where he got sad and cried to our mom because the kids did not want to play with him during playtime. From both his recollection and the teachers the children in question did not mock or make fun they just had no desire to play with him. Though because my mother complained those kids got reprimanded simply because they did not want to play with another kid while at school.

The action of not wanting to play with someone especially if it would cause an inconvenience is not inherently toxic. Sure if they say hurtful things prior to the removal or exclusion then sure we can claim it is toxic.

I get I will not sway your mind not my intent I just trying to understand how simply not wanting to play with someone in any shape or form be considered toxic behavior. Sure if we assume certain things we can shape a narrative that supports the toxic view point. Though that requires us to interject extra information to come to that conclusion. Inconvenience can mean many different things when it comes to removal of someone or not wanting to play with someone.

Is it really a good idea to foster an untenable environment where people will play nice with one another? That is also why I am not in favor of an MMR system for DF since that fosters another untenable situation but for the other side of the spectrum.

We all define inconvenience differently for you an extra 2 min is nothing for other it means a lot. If someone does not want to put up with that and they try to remove the person and it passes I do think it is unfair to view them as inherently toxic because they do not align with your own moral standard within the video game. Though the vote system could stand to make a few improvements to make it a clear cut majority is required for removal I do agree with you on that.

Though I also get I tend to have a very black and white very of things which does create issues. So the extra information is what makes the action toxic. Though I still do not get who exactly not wanting to deal with another player and removing them is toxic. To me that seems like keeping people that may not mesh together far more damaging. Sure by removing the person without reason may be confusing, but if no reason is given then why would one want to create a reason? Cause in case of kicks in the game one would have to create a reason as to why it was toxic, since at that point the person being kicked has no other information to go based off of, but people will be quick to judge and bash based off no information.

Granted I am an asshole and i accept that, though in the other cases were we do not know both sides of the story should we really pass judgement based off the explanation of one side especially when they most likely do not have any extra info to support it.

Sure if they do great, then in that case it is an easy report to a GM.

[SturmChurro]

...

I do not think it is the community's responsibility to carry dead weight. They should be contributing themselves instead of expecting others to carry them through content. As I have stated many times, it's disrespectful; it's a complete disregard of other player's time. I am not referring to new or learning players, I am referring to the players who are choosing to play at this level, and are set in their ways. This thread is pointing out the players who 'enable' this sort of behavior, even encourage it!

I'll offer help sure...if asked. I'm not gonna go around giving unsolicited advice. Players writing paragraph after paragraph is, frankly, annoying, and not only does it display an inherent bias, it can rob a new player an experience; to learn by doing. Naturally much of the "advice" given in chat I've read is awful, for that matter. Anyway, supposedly giving out "advice" can get a player banned by the GMs, if it's not written in just the right way.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

Snip.

If your intent is to help, it will reflect in chat. Most of the time, when I hear people complaining about 'giving help' causing them to get banned/penalised/cussed out a little observation of their conduct makes it apparent why.

That said, on non-newbie 'sub-par' players, one need not immediately assume that these players are being 'bad' by default. There are many ways a player can be not a sprout and still perform sub-par including but not limited to 1) real life issues (physical/mental ailments, medication, a distracting environment, hardware issues, hardware change, sudden internet stutter, etc), 2) not having gotten guidance (solo players are especially vulnerable, but being around groups that come to wrong conclusions/internalise bad habits leads to this too) and/or misunderstanding mechanics (in a general sense), 3) being given bad guidance, 4) unfamiliarity with their class/job/role 5) unfamiliarity with the duty, excacerbated by point 4, 6) rust/lack of practice and/or a change in bindings

A 'sub-par' player may be simply lazy, but they could also have a legitimate issue on their end. It would probably be for the best to not immediately assume malice without clear evidence.

A 'sub-par' player who is, indeed, lazy and refuses to get up and play properly even when given help is beyond anyone's ability to 'help'. If they are causing severe issues to the party (and, again, assuming that they have admitted to being lazy, and it's not just your assumption that they are) then you would certainly be free to remove them to help the party earn the clear. Otherwise patience is best exercised. It's not the community's obligation to carry people who are being 'lazy', certainly, but it's not also the community's right to immediately assume people performing sub-par are simply being lazy and that they should be removed.

As for this thread at large, it may be 'presented' that way (and included a legitimate tale about bad behaviour being encouraged) but if you look closely at OP's posts all through the thread you can see that it's honestly birthed from nothing more than the entitled snarling of an elitist who has repeatedly framed themselves as being 'taken advantage of' by 'half' the people in DF.

[Caurcas]

If your intent is to help, it will reflect in chat. Most of the time, when I hear people complaining about 'giving help' causing them to get banned/penalised/cussed out a little observation of their conduct makes it apparent why.

That said, on non-newbie 'sub-par' players, one need not immediately assume that these players are being 'bad' by default. There are many ways a player can be not a sprout and still perform sub-par including but not limited to 1) real life issues (physical/mental ailments, medication, a distracting environment, hardware issues, hardware change, sudden internet stutter, etc), 2) not having gotten guidance (solo players are especially vulnerable, but being around groups that come to wrong conclusions/internalise bad habits leads to this too) and/or misunderstanding mechanics (in a general sense), 3) being given bad guidance, 4) unfamiliarity with their class/job/role 5) unfamiliarity with the duty, excacerbated by point 4, 6) rust/lack of practice and/or a change in bindings

A 'sub-par' player may be simply lazy, but they could also have a legitimate issue on their end. It would probably be for the best to not immediately assume malice without clear evidence.

A 'sub-par' player who is, indeed, lazy and refuses to get up and play properly even when given help is beyond anyone's ability to 'help'. If they are causing severe issues to the party (and, again, assuming that they have admitted to being lazy, and it's not just your assumption that they are) then you would certainly be free to remove them to help the party earn the clear. Otherwise patience is best exercised. It's not the community's obligation to carry people who are being 'lazy', certainly, but it's not also the community's right to immediately assume people performing sub-par are simply being lazy and that they should be removed.

As for this thread at large, it may be 'presented' that way (and included a legitimate tale about bad behaviour being encouraged) but if you look closely at OP's posts all through the thread you can see that it's honestly birthed from nothing more than the entitled snarling of an elitist who has repeatedly framed themselves as being 'taken advantage of' by 'half' the people in DF.

Bro, its called being tired. Six years (soon to be 7) of dealing people not doing the smallest things to make the experience of those around them better wears you down. I am not an elitist but I'd rather throw my hat in with them as, at least in my interactions, they've proven to be less toxic and more helpful than the "casual" base.

[KizuyaKatogami]

(Partial snip)
That said, on non-newbie \\\\\\'sub-par\\\\\\' players, one need not immediately assume that these players are being \\\\\\'bad\\\\\\' by default. There are many ways a player can be not a sprout and still perform sub-par including but not limited to 1) real life issues (physical/mental ailments, medication, a distracting environment, hardware issues, hardware change, sudden internet stutter, etc), 2) not having gotten guidance (solo players are especially vulnerable, but being around groups that come to wrong conclusions/internalise bad habits leads to this too) and/or misunderstanding mechanics (in a general sense), 3) being given bad guidance, 4) unfamiliarity with their class/job/role 5) unfamiliarity with the duty, excacerbated by point 4, 6) rust/lack of practice and/or a change in bindings

As for this thread at large, it may be \\\\\\'presented\\\\\\' that way (and included a legitimate tale about bad behaviour being encouraged) but if you look closely at OP\\\\\\'s posts all through the thread you can see that it\\\\\\'s honestly birthed from nothing more than the entitled snarling of an elitist who has repeatedly framed themselves as being \\\\\\'taken advantage of\\\\\\' by \\\\\\'half\\\\\\' the people in DF.

Please don’t be one of those people that’s just calls anyone who doesn’t want to enable bad play an “elitist”. I’ve looked at op’s posts, they haven’t said anything that i really disagree with or anything i’d label as elitist. Are we really in such a bad state of a gaming generation that asking for players at level 80 to know their jobs is a sign of elitism? That’s absolutely pathetic. The amount of hours you have to put into the game just to hit level 80 is significant. If by then someone hasn’t looked at a guide for their job or taken some time to learn their rotation, that’s called being lazy and extremely inconsiderate. This is a MULTIPLAYER game. You’re playing with other people and your actions affect those people. This isn’t something new, the game has been this way for a long time where there are players that are either lazy or can’t take criticism and instead expect to be enabled and catered to. This doesn’t even extend to just gameplay but a variety of other things within the game. The only issue you labeled there would be if the person has real life issues which is 100% understandable and in my experience, they usually let it be known at the start of something. But besides that no there’s really no excuse. I’m genuinely tired of seeing people enable this and be extremely sensitive to any ounce of criticism or help people give and seeing people blindly defend that. It’s ridiculous and it’s going to ruin the game in the long run.

[Awha]

If your intent is to help, it will reflect in chat. Most of the time, when I hear people complaining about 'giving help' causing them to get banned/penalised/cussed out a little observation of their conduct makes it apparent why.

That said, on non-newbie 'sub-par' players, one need not immediately assume that these players are being 'bad' by default. There are many ways a player can be not a sprout and still perform sub-par including but not limited to 1) real life issues (physical/mental ailments, medication, a distracting environment, hardware issues, hardware change, sudden internet stutter, etc), 2) not having gotten guidance (solo players are especially vulnerable, but being around groups that come to wrong conclusions/internalise bad habits leads to this too) and/or misunderstanding mechanics (in a general sense), 3) being given bad guidance, 4) unfamiliarity with their class/job/role 5) unfamiliarity with the duty, excacerbated by point 4, 6) rust/lack of practice and/or a change in bindings

A 'sub-par' player may be simply lazy, but they could also have a legitimate issue on their end. It would probably be for the best to not immediately assume malice without clear evidence.

A 'sub-par' player who is, indeed, lazy and refuses to get up and play properly even when given help is beyond anyone's ability to 'help'. If they are causing severe issues to the party (and, again, assuming that they have admitted to being lazy, and it's not just your assumption that they are) then you would certainly be free to remove them to help the party earn the clear. Otherwise patience is best exercised. It's not the community's obligation to carry people who are being 'lazy', certainly, but it's not also the community's right to immediately assume people performing sub-par are simply being lazy and that they should be removed.

As for this thread at large, it may be 'presented' that way (and included a legitimate tale about bad behaviour being encouraged) but if you look closely at OP's posts all through the thread you can see that it's honestly birthed from nothing more than the entitled snarling of an elitist who has repeatedly framed themselves as being 'taken advantage of' by 'half' the people in DF.

It is also not the communities obligation to assume the reason they are playing poorly. I understand this is your standard and that is awesome, I also get this may be your desire for the community which is also cool. The thing is not everyone needs to subscribe to the same standard. Sure when you frame it as you do it sounds far worse then it really is, though if you frame it like player x was removed because group y did not like how they were playing. It is does not sound so bad? It is not about the person, just how they play. The persons character is not being brought into question or anything.

In the end it is just comes down to certain people not wanting to play with others. Yes we have tools in place such as using the PF and playing with friends, and removing said players from the group.

Though in the end this divide will always exists between the factions so to speak cause the sad reality is not wanting to play with someone can be framed in a negative way extremely easy and does lend itself to negative connotations.