Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Arillyn]

You must have terrible luck then because I run roulettes 5 or 6 times a week and never see any of this.

I don't see it nearly as often as some in this thread are making it seem to happen. But I do see it from time to time - dps not using their aoes or healers standing there picking their nose when no heals are needed, a tank doing single pulls. I don't see it a lot, but it does happen and it is frustrating when it does.

[Jijifli]

I can only speak of my experiences, but I guess there's something I need to point out first.

No, these are not every single group. If I have to be honest, it's probably not even half of them, you're right on that.

HOWEVER...

It doesn't have to be. It just has to be enough for a player to consider the possibility enough. I remember specifically in 4.1 I stopped doing all group content for the patch, because I just couldn't take the chance anymore. The straw breaking the camel's back being Right here.

As far as things are concerned, this was fine, perfectly acceptable playing, that was enough to continue content, because I had to push whatever I could with my MNK to get through it. Sure, like I said, not even half the parties are like this, but if I end up at any point questioning if queuing is worth it, even with just a small chance of this, then something certainly is wrong.

Enabling isn't okay. Players should be expected to at least contribute if they're gonna do group content. I don't see how that's ever a bad thing.

[linayar]

But how is it going to be irrelevant if by doing this you damage the fucking learning curve of the game?

No idea, wasn't my position.

those who believe that ignorance is bliss will continue about their business regardless of what anyone says. I don't think these "easy mode" story scenarios are as detrimental as some may think. People have been able to level up fast for some time, even without buying boosts. This isn't anything new.

I think solo quests are the only situations where people cannot be blissfully ignorant. And if they're already easy enough as is, there is no reason for easier modes. It's not so much about the difficulty of the mode itself, but what the game is telling people by having it.

I wonder if fear of the playerbase finding out just how underperforming they are is an unstated reason why SE refuses to put any performance feedback system in the game? I wonder if they fear the beast that they have themselves made?

Nah, that kind of fear is easily remedied by nerfing content. There is is performance feedback system in the game: damage and debuff for failed mechanic and wipe for lack of dps/heal/cleanse/mitigation when the situations call for them.

You can generally clear content with several AFK players, if it nearly runs out the timer you can clear content.

Sorry, but that's an absurd scenario. If players are AFK, then that's not about underperforming, it's about not playing. It doesn't matter if you can still clear the content, (which I doubt the general population could if it's true that people are generally underperforming) that behavior is not acceptable unless your party agrees to it beforehand.

Also, if you nearly run out of timer, unless you have lots of deaths, in which case people should be encouraged to learn the mechanics to not die, then chances are people are AFK.

So, I don't know about anybody else, but that's not the situations I was discussing here.

[SturmChurro]

Sorry, but that's an absurd scenario. If players are AFK, then that's not about underperforming, it's about not playing. It doesn't matter if you can still clear the content, (which I doubt the general population could if it's true that people are generally underperforming) that behavior is not acceptable unless your party agrees to it beforehand.

Also, if you nearly run out of timer, unless you have lots of deaths, in which case people should be encouraged to learn the mechanics to not die, then chances are people are AFK.

So, I don't know about anybody else, but that's not the situations I was discussing here.

I'm not sure if you are getting my point. There is such a low bar of actually clearing much of the content in this game, that all it takes are people in the party carrying others, others who may be the equivalent of dead weight. I'd like to highlight this post:

If they actually have such code, I have reason to believe it would be in SE's best interests to do the opposite of your proposition. That is, 'bad' players would be grouped with good players and vice versa. What you're suggesting is basically going to ruin DF by putting 'bad' players in situations where they literally can't clear instances and probably ragequit while the 'good' players keep riding the tailwind of their 'skilled player' privilege.

If you want to play with 'good' players, enter as a premade. When entering duty finder, always expect to carry your party first and foremost to avoid disappointment.

It seems to be generally agreed in this thread, that if these players are put into parties with players who choose to play at this level. They generally will not clear content. What happens when you get a tank who doesn't use their CD's, and can barely hold aggro, who is coupled with a healer who can't keep up due to a subpar usage of their kit and the tanks level of play, combined with two DPS who aren't using AOE skills, so the mobs are alive longer and hitting a tank (or themselves) longer? A WIPE. That's what.

None of this would be a problem if these players were encouraged to play at an 'adequate' level. Instead of being a burden on others across all content in the game, they could be self-sufficient.

[Caurcas]

Nah, that kind of fear is easily remedied by nerfing content. There is is performance feedback system in the game: damage and debuff for failed mechanic and wipe for lack of dps/heal/cleanse/mitigation when the situations call for them.

That not a feedback system, that is a roadblock system and a poor one at that. If they insist on not having a feedback system then they need to change their roadblock system to include more challenging content across the board to make sure everyone is contributing. It's only fair after all.

[linayar]

I'm not sure if you are getting my point. There is such a low bar of actually clearing much of the content in this game, that all it takes are people in the party carrying others, others who may be the equivalent of dead weight. I'd like to highlight this post:



It seems to be generally agreed in this thread, that if these players are put into parties with players who choose to play at this level. They generally will not clear content. What happens when you get a tank who doesn't use their CD's, and can barely hold aggro, who is coupled with a healer who can't keep up due to a subpar usage of their kit and the tanks level of play, combined with two DPS who aren't using AOE skills, so the mobs are alive longer and hitting a tank (or themselves) longer? A WIPE. That's what.

None of this would be a problem if these players were encouraged to play at an 'adequate' level. Instead of being a burden on others across all content in the game, they could be self-sufficient.

People carrying others is not in argument. That doesn't mean people should AFK regardless if you think you can still clear content with less people. So accepting that people may not perform to the liking of others is not the same as accepting people going AFK.

That not a feedback system, that is a roadblock system and a poor one at that. If they insist on not having a feedback system then they need to change their roadblock system to include more challenging content across the board to make sure everyone is contributing. It's only fair after all.

Feedback is anything that informs you of what you did. You could be in combat with full battle effects shown and not see anything, then you see a debuff, you know you were caught in the AOE.

Not liking the form of feedback doesn't make it any less of a feedback, especially since your character cannot die permanently unless you delete it.

[Awha]

BTW

Could someone explain what "bare minimum" or "very bare minimum" is to them? Cause all I can conjure in my head when I see those two statements is someone doing 1-2-3 and calling it a day.

Which, if it is something like that, would be really weird because there's quite lot of posts who are not okay with that sort of play but keep using those statements as their point of argument of what they wish people did.

EDIT: To make this easier, pick a job you know inside out, even play optimally, then explain what would be the "very bare minimum" or "bare minimum" of that job.

I cannot answer for others but bare minimum for me depends on the role. For a tank it is holding aggro, and using cooldowns while actively doing as much damage as possible within a fair margin in relation of their ilvl not expecting flawless play or perfect uptime.

Same for healer expect replace hold aggro with healing.

DPS is also fairly system use AoE in large packs, and make sure at the very least out damage tank and healers in single target encounters. I also judge this accordingly based around if say the rdm is playing rez mage or something. Though generally those are my metrics I know it is petty but I get triggered when I see players in general not aoe'ing and dps that cannot outside healers and tanks
I get the content is brain dead but what is the point of having a dps role if they do not more damage then the tank or healer role.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

BTW

Could someone explain what "bare minimum" or "very bare minimum" is to them? Cause all I can conjure in my head when I see those two statements is someone doing 1-2-3 and calling it a day.

Which, if it is something like that, would be really weird because there's quite lot of posts who are not okay with that sort of play but keep using those statements as their point of argument of what they wish people did.

EDIT: To make this easier, pick a job you know inside out, even play optimally, then explain what would be the "very bare minimum" or "bare minimum" of that job.

This may vary from one to another individual, but here’s what I think:
- Tank: Holds aggro & nothing else. Which means yes, they will eat some AoEs & eat tankbusters as big as thanksgiving turkey without cooldowns. Additionally will probably not correctly performing their 1-2-3 combo which is frankly not even needed to hold aggro in long run due to how their tank stance increase their enmity generation.
- Healer: Keeps everybody’s HP in healthy range, or at least enough to survive through unavoidable damage & nothing else. Which means, no DoT, no cleansing & no dps spells, and specifically SCH without fairies (!?)
- DPS: Pressing damage skill buttons (and nothing else) until everything’s dead. Preferably to be higher on party’s enmity order list than the healer, but I wouldn’t count of that if they’re not even performing I.e. NIN without their Mudra, DRG without their jumps, Hardcaster RDM, Ice/Thunder BLMs, Summon-less SMNs, Loner DNC, Songless BRDs, 1-2-3 MCH.

[Wolwosh]

I feel like its getting worse every expansion to.
And nobody ever mentions this, but people from Germany or Franch often will not even understand you even if you give advice.
They ignore you even if you auto-translate ^^"
Its weird to me how people in 71>80 content have not figured out the concept of cooldowning a tankbuster etc.
I just have stopped enabling it, and started vote kicking more.
If it doesn't go through I leave, i'm not going through a 45 min lvl 80 dungeon.
I don't care if ppl call me elitist anymore either xD
Know your job at 80 or go run with thrusts.

[Vinupra-Rosa]

I'm not sure if you are getting my point. There is such a low bar of actually clearing much of the content in this game, that all it takes are people in the party carrying others, others who may be the equivalent of dead weight. I'd like to highlight this post:



It seems to be generally agreed in this thread, that if these players are put into parties with players who choose to play at this level. They generally will not clear content. What happens when you get a tank who doesn't use their CD's, and can barely hold aggro, who is coupled with a healer who can't keep up due to a subpar usage of their kit and the tanks level of play, combined with two DPS who aren't using AOE skills, so the mobs are alive longer and hitting a tank (or themselves) longer? A WIPE. That's what.

None of this would be a problem if these players were encouraged to play at an 'adequate' level. Instead of being a burden on others across all content in the game, they could be self-sufficient.

As that's my post, then I will deign to respond.

You're missing a very big part of the point (and something that I expanded on in another pots), and that is beginners often start of performing highly subpar. Because they are, of course, beginners. The game doesn't really give you much in the way of tutelage with regards to performing optimally, or at least what would be considered standard by the community. Active help and tooltips exist, but the former is something that most people ignore in my experience and the latter can sometimes (as in the case of silently updating tooltips and freecure) be misleading. Hall of the novice teaches super basic practices, some of which is outdated and/or harmful (it basically teaches single pulling).

Locking DF to tiers would case entrenchment of 'bad' practices amongst 'bad' players which would make it harder to 'graduate' and qualify to the 'upper tiers'. On that thread, running as a 'good' player, being saddled with a 'bad' player is not that big of a burden most of the time (20 minute run instead of 12? NBD) and that comes with the bonus that 'good' players will serve as role models for the 'bad' players. And that is what people should strive to be -- role models, to show new players how it's done, to push them to do their best while reassuring them that they can do it. But 'bads' being consistently grouped with 'bads' gives them little room to grow and instead saddles them with unnecessary frustration far greater than duties taking 8 minutes longer to complete than normal. Chances are this will result in more people leaving instead of learning, as well as create an expectation where duties are going to be horrible anyways.

I've stopped a few times to help newbies better grasp their kit, and got gratitude most of the time (sometimes another party member would become impatient, but hush -- i'm teaching the newbie). But even verbal instruction is not the limit of this -- a good tank mass-pulling a dungeon will show a DPS how 'things are done' so that they can do the same when they pick up tanking, for example. And a dps or tank witnessing firsthand the glory of Holy might tempt them to use the skill when they are the healer. That brings me to this point:

these players were encouraged to play at an 'adequate' level

Be a role model. Offer help. You can't just force people to learn, but you can set an example for them to look up to. That is how you encourage people to play at an 'adequate' level and have them stop being a burden. Does it always work? No - there are people who will resist, but not everyone will and that's what matters. Even people who at first 'resist' might later on 'wisen up' and learn.

People underperforming at 80 was brought up but, again, even at 80 it's possible to be misinformed and/or not grasp fully how a job works, or they might have known but forget due to disuse. For heavens' sake, a person I know personally adviced me to not expend the heat gauge on trash pulls and both of us were at 80. BLM confused me enough that I levelled it to 80 through trusts just to get it out of the way and while I once knew NIN I have forgotten how to play it. Someone trying to get back into a job they had not played in forever will mess up badly even with prior study. People need to calm down.

-Thread-

This whole thread does remind me though. I don't coddle: I put any sprouts I am helping through trials of fire, pushing them on pulls that would normally be reserved for veterans. The reason? I want them to commit errors and learn while in the presence of a friendly party who is willing to help so that they won't be making these same errors in the company of the elitists such as those who have aired their laundry in this thread, who may see no issue in kicking/attacking/insulting them and otherwise discourage them from playing further simply because 'bah, this person is being a leech! screw them!'