Battle Command Design -PLEASE FIX IT

[Rydin]

the battle system though... is not one of it's selling points... period
In fact... Macro heavy battles are part of the reason FFXI wasn't the hit it could have been.
That type of battle turned A LOT of people off....
You can say "SE should please the FFXI crowd" but for every ex-FFXI player, there are 10 RPG gamers that SE wants to appeal to, and Menu based, macro heavy combat wont do it

That's your personal opinion; and XI probably did poorly b/c it was originally released to console. If it had been released to pc, originally, w/ a "tapped out" graphics engine, it would probably have made it up there w/ the, alleged, "greats." Anyway, OP doesn't want to *replace XIV's battle system w/ XI's...he wants to have the option for either. It's not asking for much.

No... it is horrid... A menu based system that is admittedly unintuitive. How do you know the system was bad? because no one used it... everyone used Macros.
So a new person starts the game. They go to fight Marmots. they can either Endure a clunky nested menu in 2012... OR... They can sit down and make a macro (making sure to get all syntax correct) before they ever fight anything.

OR....

They could just run outside and click the icon on the action bar that says "Vorpal Thrust" #IJS

Lastly... on a personal note.... battle macros leave me feeling disconnected from battle.
Gone are the days when you "issue commands" to your character....
Now.. You ARE your character... down to every swing of the sword or spell you use
Menu based combat is as far inside the box as you can get....
Challenge your brain to think outside it

Change isn't always better...I dunno why ppl think that "change" automatically = "win." The action bar isn't really "outside the box" either. Like you said yourself, virtually every other MMO out there already does something similar. So, that's a moot point.

This back and forth could go on all day. Think outside the box vs If it aint broke
Change doesn't always equal win... but in the video game world... YOU HAVE TO CHANGE. Going by your "If it aint broke... don't fix it" logic.. Every game would be super Mario Bros... or Pacman... or PONG....
Back when every RPG was turn based... One man (Akihiko Matsui) said I want FF4 to use an Action time bar (ATB) instead of being turn based... You're welcome
I've admitted the action bar can use an overhaul.. but a nested menu is NOT the way...

Hmmm....why don't they just have a configuration of both options come 2.0? This way the game can be enjoyed in either play style.

Im going to sound like a douche when I say this... and trust me... that is not my intention

I don't want man power and resources dedicated to such a pointless task

The nested Menu plus Macros battle system is an even more unintuitive version of what we have now.
Macros right now are exactly how Macros would be in that system.
Wasted time redoing the UI for relatively no change and worse functionality
Explain to me how Macros would be better (or even different) under this system?
A change is needed... but not that one

[Khal_Drogo]

No... it is horrid... A menu based system that is admittedly unintuitive. How do you know the system was bad? because no one used it... everyone used Macros...

That's not true at all. I assure you:

~You used the menu system to engage and initiate an attack (unless you really milked your macros and used /a)
~You used the menu system to /check ppl
~You used the menu system to access and use your food/drinks
~And you probably used the menu system to do your ranged attack and several abilities/spells you didn't feel like macro'n (or didn't have room for on your "Job-Specific" macro list)

... in the video game world, YOU HAVE TO CHANGE. Going by your "If it aint broke... don't fix it" logic.. Every game would be super Mario Bros... or Pacman... or PONG....
Back when every RPG was turn based... One man (Akihiko Matsui) said I want FF4 to use an Action time bar (ATB) instead of being turn based... You're welcome

lol, ok, that's a BIT of an exaggeration. No one is asking that EVERYTHING that is "good enough" should be kept the same. And, I seriously doubt that Natabant wants FFXIV to be a carbon copy of XI (as I'm sure you know too).

Granted, there were an innumerable amount of problems w/ FFXI, and I'm glad SE changed some of it up. But this action bar, the horrible party-play for exp'n, the armoury/class system, the market wards, this questing crap planned for jobs, and turning end-game content into focus on crafting rather than hard boss fights and so on...it's all awful. In this case, sorry to say, but "if it ain't broke" logic couldn't apply more.

....I've admitted the action bar can use an overhaul.. but a nested menu is NOT the way...

[With the action bar,] they could just run outside and click the icon on the action bar that says "Vorpal Thrust" #IJS

I'm not saying "there's nothing better out there." In fact, someone MAY eventually design a better UI, but in the mean time, let's at least settle for what works. The "nested, unintuitive" system in FFXI, that you condescendingly referred to, is FAR superior to this abomination they call the action bar. And if anything, it's MORE intuitive. Not only does it list *all your spells/abs/ws, it actually categorizes them, so you can immediately access a specific action.

There's nothing "intuitive" about the action bar. I can't tell you how many times I've smashed "abilities" thinking they were Weapon Skills b/c they have a tp cost associated w/ them.

[Rydin]

I'm not saying "there's nothing better out there." In fact, someone MAY eventually design a better UI, but in the mean time, let's at least settle for what works. The "nested, unintuitive" system in FFXI, that you condescendingly referred to, is FAR superior to this abomination they call the action bar. And if anything, it's MORE intuitive. Not only does it list *all your spells/abs/ws, it actually categorizes them, so you can immediately access a specific action.

by saying we should settle for it... you're implying it isn't ideal.
I definitely respect your opinion... I just can't see how Macro use is different in either case
Macros and an Action bar is no different than Macros and a Menu
You can also arrange the action bar to help alleviate any confusion regarding what you want to use
Lastly... using the actual Menu instead of the Action Bar cause you to spend a lot more time staring at text and not at the action going on... the Character and MOB models look incredible...

[Khal_Drogo]

by saying we should settle for it... you're implying it isn't ideal.
I definitely respect your opinion... I just can't see how Macro use is different in either case
Macros and an Action bar is no different than Macros and a Menu
You can also arrange the action bar to help alleviate any confusion regarding what you want to use
Lastly... using the actual Menu instead of the Action Bar cause you to spend a lot more time staring at text and not at the action going on... the Character and MOB models look incredible...

I agree that the menu system isn't "ideal" in the sense that we can never truly attain perfection. But for all intents and purposes, the traditional FF menu system *is perfection, imo. It's sleak, condensed, and to the point.

And if anything, the action bar is the one that causes players to spend more time staring and scrolling through their actions (instead of the incredible character and MOB design models).

Text is a lot less distracting these big, flashy, primitive flashing icons (faded out when unavailable, colored when available, etc.). So, I'm sorry to say it, but the action bar is an abomination; as is the targetting system. XI is superior to XIV on both counts.

[Rydin]

I agree that the menu system isn't "ideal" in the sense that we can never truly attain perfection. But for all intents and purposes, the traditional FF menu system *is perfection, imo. It's sleak, condensed, and to the point.

And if anything, the action bar is the one that causes players to spend more time staring and scrolling through their actions (instead of the incredible character and MOB design models).

Text is a lot less distracting these big, flashy, primitive flashing icons (faded out when unavailable, colored when available, etc.). So, I'm sorry to say it, but the action bar is an abomination; as is the targetting system. XI is superior to XIV on both counts.

Im sorry you feel that way because the current team seems to think nested menus are counterproductive to their vision of the game
Also... it is absolutely true that FFXI's UI discouraged MANY new players. It worked for you.. I understand that. But it didn't work for a lot of people. Im not doubting that you enjoyed it... You seem to have enjoyed it very much, unfortunately many did not.
FFXI was known for amazing storylines.... and tons of diverse content. The battle UI is never mentioned in a conversation about what was great with FFXI... and for good reason... I'm guessing we could go with this for hours but the one thing that stands out the most

I'm not saying "there's nothing better out there." In fact, someone MAY eventually design a better UI, but in the mean time, let's at least settle for what works.

this is the best argument for why we shouldn't go for that. Im personally tired of "in the mean time" from this game. I want SE to stop worrying about quick fixes and just get on with what the want to do....

Maybe one day SE will make a turn based MMO with nested menus and random battles....
But for right now... My vote would be no