Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Awha]

The role of a DPS is to deal damage. Nothing about it says it has to be better than other role.

That's just the disparity between the roles. It's part of the reasons why DPS is more popular even though some might say being a tank is easier in certain scenarios with having less mechanic to do.

The reason why is because there is a binary effect. A tank either keeps aggro or not. A tank either mitigates or not. Just look at mechanics that force a tank to use LB3. They have to make it binary so that if a tank doesn't use the LB3, the party can wipe. Otherwise, it's irrelevant whether a tank uses LB3 unless for "cheesing" purpose, and might as well have DPS do it.

Same thing with healer. Its role is to heal, but in effect, it doesn't matter how much (or how little) you heal as long as your party's HP is above 0 unless there is some healer check. In fact, there is no benefit to over-healing that I know of, but healer mains can correct me on this. It only has negative effect due to limited MP. I saw a thread recently about removing MP. If they ever remove MP for healers....

Meanwhile, a DPS who outputs less dps than healer/tank is still doing damage, still outputting dps, and as long as there is no dps check, it's irrelevant. And to be honest, even with a dps check, the important thing is the party's total dps, not any individual player's.

So, yes, there is a disparity between the roles, and each role has its own quirks.

Sure it exists but the point remains that if a dps does less damage then a tank what reason do we have outside of the game forcing amount of tank healer or dps.

That is the point or discussion here sure that is the desired setup for the game but it makes no sense to judge the performance of one role off the potential for a wipe and not hold the same standard for another. I have healed dps through content when our tank was unable to hold aggro no wipe happened so since a wipe did not happen and the content was cleared it is safe to say the tank performed well enough?

That is the point a pass should not exist for dps because how much they do is irrelevant unless it leads to a wipe.

We are splitting hairs at the point when we say a dps role is to do damage not more damage then another role. Since the same could be said for roles. A tanks role is to hold aggro and tank hits just may not be as well as another role. It does not fly when we look at it on the other foot. The same core standards should be for each role. A dps that offers nothing but damage that cannot out damage a healer or tank objectively is a failure of a dps. Just like a tank that cannot hold aggro is a failure of a tank and a healer that does not heal is a failure of a healer.

DPS do not deserve a special standard due to role disparity. Granted if we had dps meters and could call people out that disparity may be less prevalent.

It is a team game, sure but a team is comprised of individuals. Generally this community has this thing about personal accountability that defies all logic.

I have had encounters with people where people in NN defended an ice mage cause they were doing damage but blasted a tank because they did not use their AoE and just used their single target. If tab target and only 4 or 5 mobs you can maintain aggro sure you might lose aggro but the core concept is they are roughly holding aggro while an ice mage is roughly doing damage.

Yet we blast one and defend the other.

[linayar]

it makes no sense to judge the performance of one role off the potential for a wipe and not hold the same standard for another.

Wait, I think you're confused. I am holding the same standard for both. The thing is, without a DPS check, the potential for a wipe for a DPS putting out lower dps than healer/tank is almost zero. That's why it's irrelevant in Normal contents.

A dps putting out weak damage is not as threatening to the party as a tank that doesn't use AOE, causing them to lose aggro that then attack the other party members and killing them off, potentially causing the party to wipe.

[Awha]

Wait, I think you're confused. I am holding the same standard for both. The thing is, without a DPS check, the potential for a wipe for a DPS putting out lower dps than healer/tank is almost zero. That's why it's irrelevant in Normal contents.

A dps putting out weak damage is not as threatening to the party as a tank that doesn't use AOE, causing them to lose aggro that then attack the other party members and killing them off, potentially causing the party to wipe.

In the end the potential still exists without a hard dps check. The healer could just run out of mp and tank runs out of coold0wns cause the fight takes too long. The potential for a wipe still exists no matter how unlikely.

Sure it is a rare case but the potential still exists or are we going to play the healer and tank for that wipe cause they failed to do their role. If we break it down the potential for a wipe is enough reason to view someone as underperforming even if the content was cleared. We never established the likely hood of a wipe is relevant. Though if we go based off that I have healed ping pong aggro as the group tanked with the help of a great co healer through 8 man content while the tanks never had tank stance on. Wipe would really only have happen if we the healers dropped the ball in that situation.

In the end I get what you are saying and as a community we cannot do much about it expect make our own groups and kick people. Though the thing is does not mean we have to sit back and agree that this community does not enable poor play because by in large playing well is irrelevant in most content in this game.

I do also operate on a kick what I do not like or agree with mindset if the kick does not pass I leave.

[Seera1024]

Wait, I think you're confused. I am holding the same standard for both. The thing is, without a DPS check, the potential for a wipe for a DPS putting out lower dps than healer/tank is almost zero. That's why it's irrelevant in Normal contents.

A dps putting out weak damage is not as threatening to the party as a tank that doesn't use AOE, causing them to lose aggro that then attack the other party members and killing them off, potentially causing the party to wipe.

I'd say a DPS consistently not out DPS'ing a tank or healer in normal content is underperforming.

They may not be underperforming to the point that they are causing wipes, but they are significantly slowing down progress if that's the case.

A DPS not performing well is just as dangerous. Because lower DPS means a longer fight. A longer fight increases the chances of players making a mistake with mechanics or skill usage that could result in a wipe.

A D grade while passing is under performing. A person just caring to graduate high school may not have motivation to improve their performance, but they are still under performing.

Duty finder mixes players of all skill levels and game goals together. As long as the content's being completed, I personally wouldn't agree with a kick, especially if there hasn't been any attempt to nicely ask the player to improve. Players who care about the skill levels and game goals should use party finder to form a group.

[Caurcas]

Maybe SE should implement an auto kick for player not doing the bare minimum to be okay.

[MagiusNecros]

You could just form your own FC and not have to deal with that problem outside of Alliances.

The Ozma and Meteors days were fantastic let me tell you.

Edit: Linkshells also an option.

[Seera1024]

Maybe SE should implement an auto kick for player not doing the bare minimum to be okay.

And who determines bare minimum when the ability to complete content is a teamwork thing. A player doing above average work in normal mode can pick up someone not performing on average for whatever reason.

Should the player who plays with a wireless keyboard get kicked because their keyboard died mid dungeon boss fight either because of the stop in the middle due to changing the batteries or the slowness using the mouse to play and move at the same time would cause for someone not used to doing that?

What if it's a party finder group or a group of friends who are knowingly carrying someone who can't do bare minimum for whatever reason?

What if someone isn't doing well because another party member is messing up mechanics and causing them to have to adjust? Like a Black Mage having to chase down someone who is running away from the party with a stack marker? They can scathe, but that's not going to meet bare minimum when just looking at Black Mage capabilities.

When using Duty Finder you need to be open to having less than perfect runs because players of all skills and goals come together.

If you do not want to deal with the hassle of less than perfect runs, then you shouldn't use the Duty Finder as the primary means to get others to play with you. You should use Party Finder or FC's or your friends list.

[Novae]

Maybe SE should implement an auto kick for player not doing the bare minimum to be okay.

We already have one and it's called "timer".

[Vinupra-Rosa]

Maybe SE should implement an auto kick for player not doing the bare minimum to be okay.

Yet another painful-to-see hot take right after the whole 'guise we should have duty finder tiering'.

Again the answer to your woes has been handed to you on a several platter several times by different people: enter as premade.

Like, I get the frustration. I've had encountered tanks who won't AoE, tanks who won't use stance, healers who only cast cure, healers who don't dps, dps who don't aoe, dps who don't stop dying. What I do is not dismiss them right-away but offer advice. Try to help. And I find that if you word things nicely people tend to listen -- i've seen a WHM go from cure/medica spamming at the start of a dungeon to using holy and cure II at the end of it. I've seen tanks adjust and begin using AoEs, pull bigger, use cooldowns better. I've seen DPS doing their rotations semi-competently after a few pulls.

And there are those who don't improve, or bite back when given advice. At which point you have two options: leave, or kick. If you personally are offended by the other player's conduct but the rest of the party doesn't mind? Leave. If you feel like the entire party is fed up? Kick.

People who are doing (or not) 'bare minimum' might be lazy, but they might also just be unskilled and/or not given the proper guidance. Or they might be having issues irl (hardware, situational, emotional) that might be barring them from doing what you'd consider 'ideal'. They might also be hampered by the actions of another person in the group (I once kept dying in Breach because other people kept on getting me killed)

So yes. Take a seat please.

[Caurcas]

Yet another painful-to-see hot take right after the whole 'guise we should have duty finder tiering'.

Again the answer to your woes has been handed to you on a several platter several times by different people: enter as premade.

Like, I get the frustration. I've had encountered tanks who won't AoE, tanks who won't use stance, healers who only cast cure, healers who don't dps, dps who don't aoe, dps who don't stop dying. What I do is not dismiss them right-away but offer advice. Try to help. And I find that if you word things nicely people tend to listen -- i've seen a WHM go from cure/medica spamming at the start of a dungeon to using holy and cure II at the end of it. I've seen tanks adjust and begin using AoEs, pull bigger, use cooldowns better. I've seen DPS doing their rotations semi-competently after a few pulls.

And there are those who don't improve, or bite back when given advice. At which point you have two options: leave, or kick. If you personally are offended by the other player's conduct but the rest of the party doesn't mind? Leave. If you feel like the entire party is fed up? Kick.

People who are doing (or not) 'bare minimum' might be lazy, but they might also just be unskilled and/or not given the proper guidance. Or they might be having issues irl (hardware, situational, emotional) that might be barring them from doing what you'd consider 'ideal'. They might also be hampered by the actions of another person in the group (I once kept dying in Breach because other people kept on getting me killed)

So yes. Take a seat please.

So its okay for one group to be toxic and grief another portion of the the player base? Its okay for a section of the player base to be taken advantage of? Pretty bad take.