Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[SturmChurro]

Well, yeah, it is pretty self-explanatory: Performance is based on what you are trying to accomplish, and what you're trying to accomplish is clearing the content, especially when the game doesn't reward you for doing anything extra to clearing the content. How you play is irrelevant as long as you can clear the content.

I'd appreciate if players respected each other's time. By performing 'well', everyone benefits. We could complete a dungeon in an hour, but is that really something to strive for?

For example, in school I could pass a class with a D (And I did), but is that well and good, or do teachers insist you "perform" better? Is a "D" not frowned upon?

[linayar]

I'd appreciate if players respected each other's time. By performing 'well', everyone benefits. We could complete a dungeon in an hour, but is that really something to strive for?

For example, in school I could pass a class with a D (And I did), but is that well and good, or do teachers insist you "perform" better? Is a "D" not frowned upon?

"D" is not frowned upon if all you want is to get a high school diploma. If you want to get accepted to a good college, then "D" would not be enough.

But that's different than playing FFXIV because there are no teachers trying to get you to do the harder content. In fact, it's the opposite, people don't care about you once they leave the party. If you are trying to do content where people are being picky about who gets to be included, then just like getting into a good college, there is a competitive scene where you can be "underperforming" even when you can clear the content. But in a content where you are just randomly grouped, that's largely irrelevant.

[SturmChurro]

"D" is not frowned upon if all you want is to get a high school diploma. If you want to get accepted to a good college, then "D" would not be enough.

But that's different than playing FFXIV because there are no teachers trying to get you to do the harder content. In fact, it's the opposite, people don't care about you once they leave the party. If you are trying to do content where people are being picky about who gets to be included, then just like getting into a good college, there is a competitive scene where you can be "underperforming" even when you can clear the content. But in a content where you are just randomly grouped, that's largely irrelevant.

The real difference is in FFXIV is since this game is group based a player doesn't even have to be performing "passably", many players are regularly carried through content, they can literally be AFK (!), at the expense of other player's time. Just because they cannot be bothered. It's not difficult to use a combo (it lights up!), it's not difficult to use AoE - there is a reason these skills are included as a part of a player's skillset, they cannot be bothered to move out of mechanics - a healer will just raise them.. THAT'S the real problem, and the point of many arguments here in this thread is the FFXIV community - in general - enables this sort of play and behavior, instead of encouraging players to do better.

[linayar]

The real difference is in FFXIV is since this game is group based a player doesn't even have to be performing "passably", many players are regularly carried through content, they can literally be AFK (!), at the expense of other player's time. Just because they cannot be bothered. It's not difficult to use a combo (it lights up!), it's not difficult to use AoE - there is a reason these skills are included as a part of a player's skillset, they cannot be bothered to move out of mechanics - a healer will just raise them.. THAT'S the real problem, and the point of many arguments here in this thread is the FFXIV community - in general - enables this sort of play and behavior, instead of encouraging players to do better.

Hey, I said earlier that people should encourage others to do better, and one response that I got is that they'd rather kick if other players aren't already ready to be good when entering the duty.

So, yeah, maybe the community is to blame, but like you said, people can be carried through content, so that is where the game decides the minimum performance the party needs.

On more difficult content where the group will fail without better performance, that's where the community needs to help each other if they want to improve the overall experience of pugging. Or stick to whatever they're doing now and just let everything stays the same.

[Mahoukenshi]

I tell all the new players to the game that I know to NEVER JOIN THE NOVICE NETWORK. It's useless and full of trolling and toxic players.

This clearly depends on the server and/or data center you are on. Twintania's NN has been pretty good during all my playtimes. It had its share of trash topics or "endless" mentor arguments about endgame performance and what not, but ususally all questions were answered, in english, german or french if necessary.

[Doozer]

I mean, I could complete dungeons with missing players, heck even if it takes an hour you can complete a dungeon. Completing content doesn't mean a player has completed it and performed well. "Underperforming" is in regards to 'performance'... Such as: using AoE properly (or at all), their skillset more properly - instead of just random keys, properly holding aggro, more efficiently healing; not letting players die, etc. It's pretty self explanatory.

Except whether you were asleep at the wheel the whole time or going full Sweaty, the reward is still the same: you completed the duty, maybe got loot, some tomes, etc.

You can rant and rave about "performing well" in a dungeon or something all you want, but past a certain point it's just wasted energy. Why tire out my already crappy joints just so I can "perform well"? It doesn't even mean you'll get more commendations. You don't need to play at Savage/Ultimate level in standard content. You can, but you don't need to, most people don't expect you to, and it has very little impact.

You should be more worked up about people getting hard carried through Ultimate and waving around weapons and titles, but for some reason you seem more interested in 'casual' content performance. Hm.

[SturmChurro]

Except whether you were asleep at the wheel the whole time or going full Sweaty, the reward is still the same: you completed the duty, maybe got loot, some tomes, etc.

You can rant and rave about "performing well" in a dungeon or something all you want, but past a certain point it's just wasted energy. Why tire out my already crappy joints just so I can "perform well"? It doesn't even mean you'll get more commendations. You don't need to play at Savage/Ultimate level in standard content. You can, but you don't need to, most people don't expect you to, and it has very little impact.

You should be more worked up about people getting hard carried through Ultimate and waving around weapons and titles, but for some reason you seem more interested in 'casual' content performance. Hm.

Odd. I would have thought you would agree with my takes on this subject, considering this quote from the TfDF thread. Perhaps I read it wrong?

It's not the only time they died, they were terrible, and it's not being "harsh" to expect people to know how to play, especially in casual content. It's not hard. If they've done it that many times, they should be able to do the mechanics in their sleep by now. If they're too burnt out or "zoning out", maybe they should go do something else and stop slowing the rest of us down.

I don't know about you, but I'm very familiar with people lazily doing content because they know they'll get carried through it. This was one of those times. You don't know the whole story, so save your "judging by"s for someone else. Just because I was recalling a story from a few days ago and didn't give you every single detail so you could make a judgment call on whether I'm being a big meanie or not, that doesn't mean that's all that happened. This person isn't on trial, I'm just telling a story. Funny that people always come out to defend bad and lazy players.

Anyway, I couldn't care less about people showing off high end titles or weapons. I don't even know what the titles are or what the weapons look like. For that matter, I don't do high end content - not even extremes. I haven't even done an extreme since Hades. Not that I see the relevance here.

It's not like it is difficult for a player to play "well, rather "passably", all it takes is them pressing a key in a different order, and if they are really having trouble... combos even light up!

[Doozer]

Odd. I would have thought you would agree with my takes on this subject, considering this quote from the TfDF thread. Perhaps I read it wrong?

Anyway, I couldn't care less about people showing off high end titles or weapons. I don't even know what the titles are or what the weapons look like. For that matter, I don't do high end content - not even extremes. I haven't even done an extreme since Hades. Not that I see the relevance here.

It's not like it is difficult for a player to play "well, rather "passably", all it takes is them pressing a key in a different order, and if they are really having trouble... combos even light up!

Boy, I just live rent-free in your head, huh? That was over two months ago, and the thread long moved on. I'm not going to continue an argument you plucked out and stitched into this thread, and you know that there's more to playing than AFK and pretending Rabanastre is an Ultimate-tier duty.

So if you don't even do EX content, who are you to bark on and on about how other players aren't performing well? What do you know besides how to play decently in 'casual' content? How bizarre.

[SturmChurro]

Boy, I just live rent-free in your head, huh? That was over two months ago, and the thread long moved on. I'm not going to continue an argument you plucked out and stitched into this thread, and you know that there's more to playing than AFK and pretending Rabanastre is an Ultimate-tier duty.

So if you don't even do EX content, who are you to bark on and on about how other players aren't performing well? What do you know besides how to play decently in 'casual' content? How bizarre.

Are the points made in that post not relevant to the current conversation? You seem to have experience with the very same type of players I have been referring to!

I'm sorry, are you trying to shame me because I don't do high end PvE content? If so that is laughable. If you really want to know why I don't do extremes anymore, it's because I got tired of pugging them, and wasting tens of hours trying and failing to progress, and even when I did, it's a well known meme that "farm" parties are "trap" parties. Quite simply, it's a waste of time. For that matter, I don't have to do savage or ultimate content to figure out how to perform my rotation adequately, or to use an AoE skill. This is literally the whole point.

Oh, I should add! I barely even do normal content! I've not completed the new raid series, nor did I ever complete the Eden series! My gear is completely out of date!

[Doozer]

Are the points made in that post not relevant to the current conversation? You seem to have experience with the very same type of players I have been referring to!

I'm sorry, are you trying to shame me because I don't do high end PvE content? If so that is laughable. If you really want to know why I don't do extremes anymore, it's because I got tired of pugging them, and wasting tens of hours trying and failing to progress, and even when I did, it's a well known meme that "farm" parties are "trap" parties. Quite simply, it's a waste of time. For that matter, I don't have to do savage or ultimate content to figure out how to perform my rotation adequately, or to use an AoE skill. This is literally the whole point.

Oh, I should add! I barely even do normal content! I've not completed the new raid series, nor did I ever complete the Eden series! My gear is completely out of date!

I think you're projecting far too much to even waste my time talking to you. Questioning your qualifications and experience is not shaming, unless you perceive everyone that disagrees with you as attacking you. Clearly others figured out earlier that you're just looking for a fight to simultaneously win and lose, and that's why they stopped bothering. Sorry you're a victim in this game because you're so good and everyone else is so bad. Perhaps you want to play a different game? A singleplayer one, perhaps?