Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Saefinn]

Why should the fun of others come at my expense? What happens when there is no one left to carry? What if nobody does their job quest? This is what you people defend.

Considering the points and nuance raised...I actually think this probably tells us all we need to know about that NN interaction.

Yes, I would say it's better for them to do their job quests.

The point is you're gonna get people of all experiences and walks of life, that's a given. Ultimately, we have to be able to live together, because it's not like the devs are going to gatekeep. And for most of the time people do live together just fine and it's not a case of carrying the world all the time either. And probably why people are not seeing your objections as big of a deal as you are, yes, there are bad things within the FFXIV community, but maybe not as big that people feeling it's as dramatic as a "culture of enabling".

We can help people get better, that if anything is better for the community as a whole and people DO help each other get better, folks can good with newbies, to the inexperienced, to the people not getting it and help them on their way and if anything is why NN exists. I often try to offer people help and advice and in my 8 years in this game I've not had an experience like the one you've witnessed in NN. Where I have seen it is when somebody was an a-hole about it and the dogpiling is because that person was an a-hole about it or just rude or talked down to the player - and that's gone both ways too, if the person being given the advice is just an a-hole about it, I've seen people dogpile on them - like "you don't pay my sub" guy I mentioned in a previous post, we ended up kicking him.

Given this is a point raised that you're dismissing it in a sweeping "This is what you people defend" then it tells me that maybe it's an accurate point.

Sure, there's a handful of bad responses I get from individuals, oh well, there's some people in the world who can't take it. Move onto the next one. It's not common enough for me to be like "community is bad".

[Keramory]

Could be. And while gil isn't hard to get - I can't tell you how many people I know who have no idea how to make it and think having $500k gil is a big deal.

I completely believe you, and granted I've been playing since 1.0 alpha but... that's just so bizarre to me. I do literally nothing to make gil in this game, spend it like an idiot, have a wife of whom is convinced I have endless pockets, and still sitting on millions. Hate. HATE tome farming duties with a passion and will never pass mentor because of it, but that gives so much money over time everything else doesn't seem worth doing for gil lol. That and I like my treasure hunts, even if I never need the items. Just the gil from those suckers for existing in a party. Whew.

[Awha]

Why should the fun of others come at my expense? What happens when there is no one left to carry? What if nobody does their job quest? This is what you people defend.

It is not so much at your expense in the general sense but it is the community that is fostered by having easier normal content. Reality is in the eyes of many other players strangers are no better the NPC's so it is easier to think of them as irrelevant.

Not saying this is a good thing but when a game does not throw challenges that force a group to form a bound it is easier to screw over others. Cause they have no real value.

[Arillyn]

I completely believe you, and granted I've been playing since 1.0 alpha but... that's just so bizarre to me. I do literally nothing to make gil in this game, spend it like an idiot, have a wife of whom is convinced I have endless pockets, and still sitting on millions. Hate. HATE tome farming duties with a passion and will never pass mentor because of it, but that gives so much money over time everything else doesn't seem worth doing for gil lol. That and I like my treasure hunts, even if I never need the items. Just the gil from those suckers for existing in a party. Whew.

Heh it's bizarre to me as well. I've been playing since 1.0 and remember when making gil could be quite the challenge at different times in this game's history. Now it's so easy I just don't understand when people complain they can't make gil, even after I've given them the many tips of all the different ways you can in the game that don't even have anything to do with gathering or crafting. The game throws gil at you now!

[Vinupra-Rosa]

Yeah yeah, I get it. You two (you know who I mean) both have severe grudges against NN and would like it 'dealt with' despite one of you professing -and proudly so- to have never checked/used the system in years.

Look, every server's NN is different, and even a single NN's server differs in general attitude depending on the time of day.

Funnily enough though, these complaints reminds me of someone who caused drama in our NN earlier; a sprout was asking for help on PLD melds, and several mentors including one who is in BIS, a paladin main, and good at their job, offered their help.

One Mentor then randomly went "best advice is to ignore everyone here and go to the balance" --- and then proceeded to continously mock/dismiss/provoke/gaslight people in NN like saying "look at how the hivemind whines at me telling you to ignore it!" and "you are all snowflakes" and "gcbtw". They also kept framing their actions as "helping" the sprout, and tried to make everyone else seem bad for not liking their provocations.

The advice given by every mentor who had pitched in was correct, and basically the same. It was actually in line with what information is in the balance, not in opposition to it.

After being asked to stop/descalate several times and responding with further escalation, they got kicked.

They had a last hurrah: they immediately logged on to an alt and tried to smear / personally insult some of the mentors in the NN.

I have a strong feeling that those people who go "NN BAD!" all the time act like this guy in one way or another. Maybe at one point they tried giving advice, and either kept wording it poorly or it was incorrect and they refused to be corrected, and began cultivating vendettas.

But on the idea of "enabling", that culture is very much there yes. But what is being enabled differs from community to community. Our NN is not wont to enable those things you just said for example -- 'always do you class/job quests' is said often, as is 'always be geared'.

[Jeeqbit]

Enabling poor play and coddling players is probably the most visible.

Most people play the game casually. They login once every 2 years or so to do the story and then unsubscribe. They really are not likely to get to the point of this "good play" unless they play more often. Most people who play an MMO are just having a bit of fun and not as serious as you about playing well.

If they enter an extreme or savage party, absolutely, they should be playing well and preparing properly. If they aren't doing that, who cares?

Such as for example a mentor got dogpiled on in Siren's NN for trying to correct a player whom had not done their job quest, because they "didn't feel like doing them".

It's right for them to politely point out that doing them is important, but being polite is important. If they weren't polite then I would understand the backlash and them being kicked.

If the individual chooses not to listen and does not become their job and that becomes a problem later on, they will probably be kicked from a dungeon anyway, for example for not having basic healing abilities that they need to overcome the content on a conjurer.

Most of the time, you would actually be fine in a dungeon without your soul crystal if you have decent gear and know how the class works. I tanked as a class in Heavensward a bit for fun and it was fine.

[Dzian]

Now the part I have a feeling you may not like is I do stand behind my number 1. People are clearly so bored in an MMO with such a massive world that they're now just hunkering down and creating RP/ERP taverns. I blame that completely on there being little else to find interest in content wise after a few years on this game. I do think though that you're confusing me with some elite player who thinks savage is the only content worthy of dev attention. If you look at my game achievements you'll quickly find out I'm not that person lol. I just think there isn't much in terms of long goal progression of almost any kind in the game (traveling, leveling, gearing up, goals) and thats continuing to lead to crazier and crazier things were seeing in the forums now.

This in part at least is a result of the very fact they do dumb things down and enable terrible play or lazy attitudes or whatever else..

The unsync system is a prime example here. What it does is turn a huge amount of the games content that could keep those really bored players occupied for a decent amount of time. Into things that can be blasted through in a couple of minutes. Thus leaving players with nothing to do... its almost paradoxical how this game has so much content but at the same time has none at all.

The other issue is that literally everything is temporary and very short lived. And essentially useless. Even at the top tier or highest level.. here's sone i500 gear for clearing Savage good job!!!

Next patch lands with a new raid tier and that 500 gear you got is already trashed and replaced by 510 crafted.... its one reason many players don't bother raiding because "whats the point?"

I was into it in ARR coil was fun and the story was great. But every expansion since has been less and less motivation to bother.. don't even need to for the story anymore either. Which kinda detracts from the stories...

It's kinda jarring when a story tries to portray impending doom of some form and you basically steam roll through it without even knowing what your doing... completely destroys the atmosphere the story tries to create. One reason I enjoyed coil was because you felt it in the encounters...

[Puremallace]

Now the part I have a feeling you may not like is I do stand behind my number 1. People are clearly so bored in an MMO with such a massive world that they're now just hunkering down and creating RP/ERP taverns.

I think you are forgetting what is going on outside. If you live in America everything was effectively locked down for over a year. If you live in India or other places death is all around you. People are doing these activities to escape what has categorically been the worst year most of us have ever been through.

If that is what they enjoy then more power to them. From what I have learned with FF14 is that when you do not gate the gear behind some RNG garbage then people will create other forms of end game that involve interacting with other people. This is how MMO's used to be before developers realized they could milk you for game time if they put gear and skill power behind time gated RNG garbage.

Next patch lands with a new raid tier and that 500 gear you got is already trashed and replaced by 510 crafted.... its one reason many players don't bother raiding because "whats the point?"

This statement makes no sense when 530 gear exist and is better that that 510 gear. People do not raid nearly as heavily in FF14 for the original reason I listed that FC's do not serve the same purpose of organizing people into coordinated groups like guilds do in multiple other MMO's.

You can get up to 520 at your sweet slow pace and avoid dealing with the Savages/Ultimates that takes the idea of community in this MMO and throws it in the nearest dumpster. In that place it becomes about parses and literal god like perfect rotations for 15+ min fights with heavy reliance of measuring a players worth by their ACT parse vs what they contribute to a group.

Even one of the streamers who makes a lot of the guides talks down to a lot of people in this community and suggest ideas about making it so you cannot even do boss damage unless you are doing perfect rotations. She then gets confused why her stream is not growing passed a small niche of people.

If I wanted that toxic community I would install WeakAuras, RaiderIO and multiple other Adds on and go back to WoW but I stay here because a majority of this community rejects the ideology of elitism that is literally killing other MMO's.

[Keramory]

I think you are forgetting what is going on outside. If you live in America everything was effectively locked down for over a year. If you live in India or other places death is all around you. People are doing these activities to escape what has categorically been the worst year most of us have ever been through.

Well I can promise you I didn't forget about Covid lol. There's definitely an argument that more people are joining MMOs and spending more time in them because of Covid... but what they're doing in those games is still dependent on the content within it. I don't think Covid alone is an answer to people creating ERP taverns suddenly unless someone is under the impression a bunch of hip clubsters who were spending every Sat getting busy and now relying on au'ra chats to feed their frustrations.

[Krotoan]

But it's not a solo game, it's a team based activity. Nor are the rules strict.

They aren't strict but the OP likely wishes they were so as not to "enable" people.

There are exceptions where players can be toxic and expect too much but for most people it's generally basic things like "get your job stone", "use some aoe in dungeons", "don't use gear 50ilv too low", "don't stand around and do absolutely nothing for 70% of a dungeon as healer", "use some cd's as a tank", "be open to friendly advice". You know, work with your team.

Polite suggestions are fine. And where it should stop as far as interactions. If someone is doing everything you say then sure, drop them, stop talking to them, DON'T play with them anymore. However as someone who plays daily and does roulettes it's not the plague the OP makes it out to be. I also have my suspicions that "advising" done wasn't exactly tactful.

You don't pay their sub, so if you aren't going to contribute to the group because it's more fun for you, they have no obligation to carry you when it's not fun at all for them.

And at the point you've got someone in your party who has no job stone, never uses AOE, has crappy gear AND stands around doing nothing, go ahead and kick them if you don't feel like doing charity work. It cuts both ways. Nobody has an obligation to be up to your standards but you also don't have to carry them or even talk to them.