"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[Awha]

If you are already calling people out for "if they are what amounts to a sort of waste of space", I'd assume they could already report you, frankly. Wait, you aren't using a third party program to gather said numbers are you?

I word it nicer in game. Though if I use a third party tool the numbers it records should not be seen as toxic. Linking the numbers then saying x you need to step it up is not toxic though in FFXIV it is seen as toxic due to SE dated view on parsing.

[linayar]

I word it nicer in game. Though if I use a third party tool the numbers it records should not be seen as toxic. Linking the numbers then saying x you need to step it up is not toxic though in FFXIV it is seen as toxic due to SE dated view on parsing.

I think the problem is that numbers is meaningless without context, but people abuse that to this day, so I don't think SE's view is that dated when it can still apply to present day players.

For example, a "gray" parse on a certain website still means that you cleared the content. You would be right in saying that player could do better, but that's where the fact ends. The issue of whether the player should do better or needs to do better, especially if they're doing enough to clear the content without dying or causing the party to hit enrage but is getting gray parse due to gearing or conservative means of doing mechanics or some other reason, is a matter of opinion.

Now, you could say you would only use numbers on people who are dying or causing the party to wipe or hit enrage, but if the numbers are readily available, others might not stick to those cases.

And then if we go to the other extreme to follow along the OP's scenario, you can't say there won't be people who would use numbers in context that don't even need them like in normal content.

[Awha]

I think the problem is that numbers is meaningless without context, but people abuse that to this day, so I don't think SE's view is that dated when it can still apply to present day players.

For example, a "gray" parse on a certain website still means that you cleared the content. You would be right in saying that player could do better, but that's where the fact ends. The issue of whether the player should do better or needs to do better, especially if they're doing enough to clear the content without dying or causing the party to hit enrage but is getting gray parse due to gearing or conservative means of doing mechanics or some other reason, is a matter of opinion.

Now, you could say you would only use numbers on people who are dying or causing the party to wipe or hit enrage, but if the numbers are readily available, others might not stick to those cases.

And then if we go to the other extreme to follow along the OP's scenario, you can't say there won't be people who would use numbers in context that don't even need them like in normal content.

Personally even if the content is cleared if a dps is doing less damage then a tank or a healer claims they are healing those are valid cases to show them the numbers cause sure we cleared but that should not be an excuse for that level of poor play. Do not get me wrong you can clear content in this game carrying many people. I happen to do that myself with friends who have physical or mental limitations that prevent them from preforming. Though that is why we do not take pugs when we do it. Sure they could join PF and prob get through fine but still not cool imo.

Parser is not inherently toxic nor is showing numbers though clearing the content should not be an excuse to poor play. Not saying I expect perfect play but I expect players at max level when it comes to pugs or PF groups unless stated otherwise that everyone playing has a general idea how to play.

[linayar]

Personally even if the content is cleared if a dps is doing less damage then a tank or a healer claims they are healing those are valid cases to show them the numbers cause sure we cleared but that should not be an excuse for that level of poor play. Do not get me wrong you can clear content in this game carrying many people. I happen to do that myself with friends who have physical or mental limitations that prevent them from preforming. Though that is why we do not take pugs when we do it. Sure they could join PF and prob get through fine but still not cool imo.

Parser is not inherently toxic nor is showing numbers though clearing the content should not be an excuse to poor play. Not saying I expect perfect play but I expect players at max level when it comes to pugs or PF groups unless stated otherwise that everyone playing has a general idea how to play.

If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death/hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

[Awha]

If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death and hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

I guess for me I just do not like to carry people unless it was my intent to carry someone through the content. Also in FFXIV the barrier is so low that if a player joins a PF of strangers expecting a carry cause they can do the mechanics and this is acceptable behavior to me that is far more toxic then most the stuff I have seen in WoW. Though generally i know my threshold for what is toxic is a lot higher then most I would say.

[linayar]

I guess for me I just do not like to carry people unless it was my intent to carry someone through the content. Also in FFXIV the barrier is so low that if a player joins a PF of strangers expecting a carry cause they can do the mechanics and this is acceptable behavior to me that is far more toxic then most the stuff I have seen in WoW. Though generally i know my threshold for what is toxic is a lot higher then most I would say.

Based on this, I'd say it's not higher threshold, but perhaps different understanding, of what is toxic. I would say someone who is doing their part through the mechanic is not being carried at all, so it's not toxic if they think that's enough to try to join a group.

At the end of the day, though, a PF leader has the right choose whom to keep and whom to kick from their party, while a DF party has a vote to kick function as well.

For the most, I do agree with SE's stance on this, though I can also sympathize with the idea that more information can be useful for improving, especially for doing harder contents.

[Awha]

Based on this, I'd say it's not higher threshold, but perhaps different understanding, of what is toxic. I would say someone who is doing their part through the mechanic is not being carried at all, so it's not toxic if they think that's enough to try to join a group.

At the end of the day, though, a PF leader has the right choose whom to keep and whom to kick from their party, while a DF party has a vote to kick function as well.

For the most, I do agree with SE's stance on this, though I can also sympathize with the idea that more information can be useful for improving, especially for doing harder contents.

Sure we can remove the player but I do think this general idea that the if a person does the mechanics and does not die while doing less damage as a healer or tank as an example is inexcusable personally. Problem with the kick function people will not wipe the group the remove the player so in essence they are getting carried.

While I am the type or player to bring it up end of the day for some it is useless cause the only metric some follow is we cleared so we all did good. Sure a parse has a plethora of useful data, though the overall damage number is telling in the moment depending on the context of course. I personally just cannot fathom a universe where a healer or tank should be doing more damage then say a BLM or SAM in normal content when it comes to single target. Sure their damage may not be needed but can we honestly say in good faith they did fine cause we cleared?

This is why I feel SE mindset is dated. They are scared how the data will be used which is understandable but barring the data altogether is overkill. It is akin to the feast chat change, sure some chat was toxic but not all. Instead of just allowing people to report the "toxic" behavior. Though I do not even think feast chat was toxic calling someone bad or telling them to no queue again is not inherently toxic imo. Rude to a degree us but as a player in many games i rarely see someone call someone out without reason. It is not up to the community to inform them how to be better. That is on the player a one quick google search is sometimes enough.

To me the real only toxic behavior is results is doxing someone mocking them on steam unless they ask for it by being a royal dbag, making fun of them if they have a limitation be it physical or mental. Generally those are the extremes I consider as toxic calling someone bad or telling them never to queue again stuff like that is not toxic imo rude yes. For me toxic has to go above and beyond simply being rude. Thus my stance how someone going into a group doing tyr bare minimum required of them necessary to clear the content goes above a beyond being rude imo.

[Callinon]

If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death and hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

If you're hitting enrage then your dps are NOT doing their jobs properly.

Doing the mechanics correctly is good. That's often the hard part of learning a fight. But every party member also has the job of contributing to the boss' death. If you're hitting an enrage timer then your party is not meeting the dps check on the fight. I don't especially care whether I'm "beating" another dps on numbers or not, but if they're severely underperforming then they aren't doing their job. Keep in mind please we're talking about a party that otherwise wins the fight if not for poor dps.

[linayar]

If you're hitting enrage..

I said if you're not. Sorry if the sentence structure might've been ambiguous. It should've been without (any death or hitting enrage).

[Callinon]

I said if you're not. Sorry if the sentence structure might've been ambiguous. It should've been without (any death or hitting enrage).

Ah yeah I see it now... yeah editing that was definitely a good idea.