Trust should go up to trails

[linayar]

You misunderstand. Those raids people used to solo are not lvling content at all. They were the endgame of previous expansions. They're not going back to solo group content they skipped in the lvling experience because it's not content used for or intended to be for xp gain. It never was. There aren't even roulettes you can use to do these old raids. They are completely irrelevant when it comes to xp gain. It's just like how savage and ex difficulty content in FFXIV isn't used to gain xp...

I understand all of that, but it doesn't change what I said because...

...So yea while WoW does let you get to max lvl with zero group content, the solo content it has in general is very lacking when compared to FFXIV.

... I wasn't really comparing the two games. My point is simply to use an example of a popular MMORPG to show how "mmos" don't necessarily have to encourage teamplay anymore. It doesn't mean that the game doesn't have group content, but if you want to play it solo, you can very well do so.

With that said, I will say something about this part:

[*]It is very rare for WoW to introduce max lvl story content that isn't somehow connected to gearing up for endgame, whereas this is common in FFXIV.

I would disagree with that statement.

Max level story content includes:

Max-level MSQ - includes mandatory dungeons and trials, requires gearing up for endgame and grouping up (outside of TRUST) until you can solo them in future expansions.

Alliance raid story quest - includes mandatory raids, requires gearing up for endgame and grouping up, even just to enter the instances in future expansions.

Trial series story quest - includes mandatory trials, requires gearing up for endgame and grouping up until you can solo them in future expansions.

Regular raid story quest - includes mandatory raids, requires gearing up for endgame and grouping up until you can solo them in future expansions.

Relic weapon story quest - may or may not require gearing, but definitely encourages grouping up for at least parts of them.

Those are, I think, the main max level story quests in FFXIV. Other side max level story quests may or may not require grouping up or gearing.

With WoW, it's important to note that dungeons and raids are not always required to continue the story. Or they may be required at the beginning, but then become optional later in the same expansion. So the only gearing required for endgame for story purposes is to deal with the scaling done to the open world enemies or specific quest-related enemies.

[Penthea]

... I wasn't really comparing the two games.

Really? You were the one who brought up WoW. Unless there's a different game that is the supposed most popular mmo on the market you're referring to that I don't know about.

I would disagree with that statement.

Max level story content includes:

Max-level MSQ - includes mandatory dungeons and trials, requires gearing up for endgame and grouping up (outside of TRUST) until you can solo them in future expansions.

Alliance raid story quest - includes mandatory raids, requires gearing up for endgame and grouping up, even just to enter the instances in future expansions.

Trial series story quest - includes mandatory trials, requires gearing up for endgame and grouping up until you can solo them in future expansions.

Regular raid story quest - includes mandatory raids, requires gearing up for endgame and grouping up until you can solo them in future expansions.

Relic weapon story quest - may or may not require gearing, but definitely encourages grouping up for at least parts of them.

I didn't say that FFXIV doesn't have a lot of max lvl quests tied to pve progression I said that unlike WoW FFXIV frequently give max lvl quests that are not tied to it. WoW rarely gives max lvl quest content that isn't tied to pve progression. Don't confuse "frequently gives quests unattached to max lvl pve progression" for "gives mostly only quests unattached to max lvl pve progression" because they are not the same thing. I didn't say what you think I said.

Hildibrand, the quests that are chained to role quests, Doman Enclave and the Scholasticate quest line to name some examples of max lvl quests that are not attached to pve progression. WoW very rarely offers quests like this, FFXIV has in every expansion.

EDIT: just want to add in case anyone is confused, I support Trusts being expanded to msq trials, I just don't think it's going to happen soon. I think we would sooner see the Trusts being expanded to the rest of the 4 man content first considering it already works fine for 4 man content and there are significantly more of those to do than trials. And well we have no idea if SE even fancy the idea of adding Trusts to anything above 4 man, maybe we will see some comment about it in May.

[linayar]

Really? You were the one who brought up WoW. Unless there's a different game that is the supposed most popular mmo on the market you're referring to that I don't know about.

I did brought up that game, but you didn't quote the explanation:

... I wasn't really comparing the two games. My point is simply to use an example of a popular MMORPG to show how "mmos" don't necessarily have to encourage teamplay anymore.

I was using WoW as a response to your statement, not to compare it to FFXIV.

WoW rarely gives max lvl quest content that isn't tied to pve progression.

In one sense, fair enough. But I think that's more because WoW has more of a focus than FFXIV. But, I think that focus is more one-sided. I was casually playing WoW at endgame without doing much of the PVE progression. Just like in FFXIV, how much you need to progress depends on the kind of content that you want to do. But WoW didn't really have much of a MSQ until recently, and the MSQ in FFXIV at least requires you to progress to the point of being able to enter the last required group content in the expansion.

Anyways, this is more of a tangent to the teamplay discussion.

And yes, glad to see more support for TRUST. Although I do see the point of making trials easier to accommodate TRUST, but I think that normal trials aren't really for farming anyway, outside of being run in a roulette, and it wouldn't impact extreme versions. And it also depends on the AI technology, which should improve over time.

[Penthea]

In one sense, fair enough. But I think that's more because WoW has more of a focus than FFXIV.

I think it's more correct to say that both games do not focus on the same things. WoW famously pushes their high-end pve content as a major feature while FFXIV pushes their story content as a major feature. Both are valid. Neither type of content is better or worse than the other, it's about what a player personally prefers. There are players who enjoy both types of focuses and do play both games, they're just attracted to them for different reasons. Variety is nice to have. (and I'm quite disappointed that I still don't enjoy the direction WoW is going in because I'd love to have another mmo I enjoy to play on the side, I was looking forward to New World launching but that has been postponed D': )

And yes, glad to see more support for TRUST. Although I do see the point of making trials easier to accommodate TRUST, but I think that normal trials aren't really for farming anyway, outside of being run in a roulette, and it wouldn't impact extreme versions. And it also depends on the AI technology, which should improve over time.

I think the ai would have to be more sophisticated for trials for the simple fact that trials typically have mechanics that are more complex than dungeons and mistakes are less forgiving. Dunno about you but I have seen Trust npcs mess up mechanics by standing in telegraphs due to pathing issues. I think they would have to fix that first before expanding Trusts to bigger parties than 4 man.

And like I said there are significantly more 4 man msq instances than msq trials, so just for covering a lot of content it would make sense for SE to prioritise 4 man content first.

I actually quite enjoy Trusts when I want to do a dungeon but I'm in a super chill mood or I'm just curious to see what little bits of lore are hidden in them. I just wish the required xp gains on the npcs to lvl up wasn't so ludicrously high. But I suppose it might be like that because SE don't want players to rely on Trusts too much? It is possible that this is the intention considering they still haven't addressed that and it's the end of the expansion now. But players only need to complete msq content once to progress so it's not a huge issue and they're always available when you have a newly unlocked msq dungeon, and there are other avenues for xp when lvling up other classes.

[linayar]

I'd love to have another mmo I enjoy to play on the side, I was looking forward to New World launching but that has been postponed D':[/I] )

This has been a sad year for me as I finally decided to quit both WoW and SWTOR (and I was playing the latter only for story, but unlike in FFXIV, there is no reason to gear up or to team up, so there was nothing for me to do in between story patches, which are also not as predictable as FFXIV).

I don't really like PVP-focused MMORPG, which I think New World was supposed to be, though I also heard they backtracked a bit on that. Ashes of Creation also seems to be like that. PSO2 NGS might be worth a try, or this SoLO game I've been hearing about, though Gameforge, so ugh.

I think the ai would have to be more sophisticated for trials for the simple fact that trials typically have mechanics that are more complex than dungeons and mistakes are less forgiving. Dunno about you but I have seen Trust npcs mess up mechanics by standing in telegraphs due to pathing issues. I think they would have to fix that first before expanding Trusts to bigger parties than 4 man.

And like I said there are significantly more 4 man msq instances than msq trials, so just for covering a lot of content it would make sense for SE to prioritise 4 man content first.

I actually quite enjoy Trusts when I want to do a dungeon but I'm in a super chill mood or I'm just curious to see what little bits of lore are hidden in them. I just wish the required xp gains on the npcs to lvl up wasn't so ludicrously high. But I suppose it might be like that because SE don't want players to rely on Trusts too much? It is possible that this is the intention considering they still haven't addressed that and it's the end of the expansion now. But players only need to complete msq content once to progress so it's not a huge issue and they're always available when you have a newly unlocked msq dungeon, and there are other avenues for xp when lvling up other classes.

How do you feel about the TRUST experience in the Bozja intro quest? I think that was a good start.

[SturmChurro]

This has been a sad year for me as I finally decided to quit both WoW and SWTOR (and I was playing the latter only for story, but unlike in FFXIV, there is no reason to gear up or to team up, so there was nothing for me to do in between story patches, which are also not as predictable as FFXIV).

I don't really like PVP-focused MMORPG, which I think New World was supposed to be, though I also heard they backtracked a bit on that. Ashes of Creation also seems to be like that. PSO2 NGS might be worth a try, or this SoLO game I've been hearing about, though Gameforge, so ugh.

FFXIV is really the only MMORPG we have. Welcome to the club.

[linayar]

FFXIV is really the only MMORPG we have. Welcome to the club.

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad to have FFXIV. It's my favorite BY FAR even when I also was playing other MMORPGs.

It's just that, when people like to mention other games, it's nice if I know what they're talking about. Even now, I feel like I can't even speak much on current WoW much longer since I never got past the leveling experience in Shadowlands, so all of my experience at max level is based on BfA, (though I'm pretty sure what I've said in this thread still applies.).

And honestly, as someone who likes story, getting to know about the stories in other MMORPGs does have its charm. It's just other things about other games make me not want to continue playing them, even for the story.

[Penthea]

I don't really like PVP-focused MMORPG, which I think New World was supposed to be, though I also heard they backtracked a bit on that.

They did. Initially they had pvp constantly enabled and what happened was players found themselves unable to progress in the game due to constantly getting ganked. The game just turned into a spiteful pvp mess. It was clear that this path wasn't doing the game any favours. I didn't play it at that point because like you I just don't have interest in a pvp focused mmorpg. I played it after they removed forced pvp and I really enjoyed it.

The character creation is lacking (well it was beta so perhaps it will be better at launch) but the environments are truly stunning. The combat itself is also a lot of fun. There are no classes, instead there are weapons that have certain skill types you can use. You can switch weapons in combat to have a flexible playing style. Huge contrast to how FFXIV's character progression is done. Also the housing is instanced, which is really nice...wish FFXIV would do that. Sigh.

PSO2 NGS might be worth a try

I have been flirting with the idea of playing that. I have a friend who is a huge PSO fan and she really loves it.

How do you feel about the TRUST experience in the Bozja intro quest? I think that was a good start.

I honestly forgot it even had that. I actually have no memory of it at all lol. Brain why you no work?

Well I guess that could mean it wasn't a bad experience otherwise I would have remembered it!