To those that say FF14 is not a big dog in MMO's

[Nayout]

Why are people using a page that talks about "invented" numbers when we have been having census for years created by the Japanese community?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...os_5_december/

[LittleImp]

FFXIV is no where near 700k-1mil. Don't know where you are getting this information. FFXIV is currently sitting around the 2.5mil mark.

https://mmo-population.com/r/ffxiv/

WoW is currently at about 3.1mil.

https://mmo-population.com/r/wow/

You have to look at the chart of active players. Not the "Estimated" # you see at the top of the page.

That website is clickbait with bad methodology and has been widely criticized in multiple game communities for their numbers more or less being completely made up. Not a credible source whatsoever. None of the numbers that website supposedly has access to, such as daily logins, are accessible to anyone except SE.

The best census work with a well document methodology we have to go on is via Lucky Bancho. Here's the FFXIV census as of 2/7/2021

[Vahlnir]

That website is clickbait with bad methodology and has been widely criticized in multiple game communities for their numbers more or less being completely made up. Not a credible source whatsoever. None of the numbers that website supposedly has access to, such as daily logins, are accessible to anyone except SE.

The best census work with a well document methodology we have to go on is via Lucky Bancho. Here's the FFXIV census as of 2/7/2021

If I'm reading it right, that's still a respectable number. FF XIV's population has never been the absolute biggest, but I'd say it's one of the most loyal fan bases.

[Y2K21]

You seem like you really dont like what that site reveals

No, its just you can look at other portions of the site and see different numbers. Top Growth doesnt share the same numbers with Total Active Players? Why?

If the numbers are completely accurate and all based on the same estimations -- then the number for total active players should be the same. So why does FF14 in the Top MMO category boast 2.36M active players on one list then drop to 400k when speaking about month growth (speaking for total population)?

For number sake -- the same growth list has WoW Retail at 2.11M on MMO Growth.

Even if you want to do the "Well its total active sub" -- then that list basically says that while people have active subs that only a fraction of people are actively playing in the previous month. If you do the math that means according to MMO-Population:

FF14's Active Player to Active Sub Ratio: is 19.4%
WoW's Active Player to Active Sub Ratio: is 64.7%

You could make the argument of content drought, but so is WoW currently. 9.1 for WoW is basically unknown currently for a release date and this is prime time to see sub drops from an extended release patch. People have already complained about lack of casual content and lack of will to do hefty grinds.

But -- if you want to tout the numbers of a website as this hierarch of truth: be prepared to use the full website and not only one part to get forum upvotes. We can clap for FF14 having a 10 in total active sub/total sub ever number -- but then have to eat the fact that apparently the game only has less than 1/5 of those active subs playing.

[Rinhi]

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...g-dog-in-MMO-s
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...because-my-god
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-not-announced
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-at-this-point

Plus
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...rtuned-for-LFR

this should've been the last post in the thread

[Vahlnir]

No, its just you can look at other portions of the site and see different numbers. Top Growth doesnt share the same numbers with Total Active Players? Why?

If the numbers are completely accurate and all based on the same estimations -- then the number for total active players should be the same. So why does FF14 in the Top MMO category boast 2.36M active players on one list then drop to 400k when speaking about month growth (speaking for total population)?

For number sake -- the same growth list has WoW Retail at 2.11M on MMO Growth.

Even if you want to do the "Well its total active sub" -- then that list basically says that while people have active subs that only a fraction of people are actively playing in the previous month. If you do the math that means according to MMO-Population:

FF14's Active Player to Active Sub Ratio: is 19.4%
WoW's Active Player to Active Sub Ratio: is 64.7%

You could make the argument of content drought, but so is WoW currently. 9.1 for WoW is basically unknown currently for a release date and this is prime time to see sub drops from an extended release patch. People have already complained about lack of casual content and lack of will to do hefty grinds.

But -- if you want to tout the numbers of a website as this hierarch of truth: be prepared to use the full website and not only one part to get forum upvotes. We can clap for FF14 having a 10 in total active sub/total sub ever number -- but then have to eat the fact that apparently the game only has less than 1/5 of those active subs playing.

One thing to understand about current WoW is that the progression systems are basically holding players' subs hostage with how long things take, and their fear of falling behind is a major factor. Just because they have more subs and a more active player base, doesn't mean their game is actually in a good place. Luckily I saw the most recent expansion for what it was immediately, but it was blatantly obvious what their goal was...and it wasn't fun content.

[Awha]

One thing to understand about current WoW is that the progression systems are basically holding players' subs hostage with how long things take, and their fear of falling behind is a major factor. Just because they have more subs and a more active player base, doesn't mean their game is actually in a good place. Luckily I saw the most recent expansion for what it was immediately, but it was blatantly obvious what their goal was...and it wasn't fun content.

To be honest I do enjoy this current expansion though the progression aspect is annoying, and does ruin what I would say is an enjoyable experience for the most part personally.

[Vahlnir]

To be honest I do enjoy this current expansion though the progression aspect is annoying, and does ruin what I would say is an enjoyable experience for the most part personally.

To each their own. I just wanted no part in the current state of things.

[Awha]

To each their own. I just wanted no part in the current state of things.

I get that many of the systems are annoying and damaging to the players. Granted these systems also do not help the fact they are really behind in terms of putting out content. That is my major beef with the expansion.

[Y2K21]

One thing to understand about current WoW is that the progression systems are basically holding players' subs hostage with how long things take, and their fear of falling behind is a major factor. Just because they have more subs and a more active player base, doesn't mean their game is actually in a good place. Luckily I saw the most recent expansion for what it was immediately, but it was blatantly obvious what their goal was...and it wasn't fun content.

You may have had a point with this when AP was more actively a role in: but the only thing that is holding people hostage is their will to continuously grind out gear.

What exactly are you falling behind in? There isnt this rush-rush to grind Azerite Power or else be behind in levels for when you needed the ilvl or the level floor to use powers. Anima just unlocks cosmetics. Renown isnt hard to grind and the covenant campaign is over -- meaning all that remains is cosmetic worth. Soul Ash is completely useless after one max legendary. Maw doesnt really matter unless you are at your top gear and serves as a Stygia dump.

To me, this is probably been the most relaxed I've been in WoW ever to where I dont have to log in every day or else I am behind in some system.

But to me -- if people are honestly claiming that 2 million players are actively grinding out M+, raiding, and PvP at the same time to be on the loot treadmill for Great Vault, then that sounds suspicious simply because being progress in all three areas would require to be a hardcore player (upon which even hardcore players tend to not do all three areas in progressive format). Are we honestly going to dishonestly claim that 2 million+ players are whale, hardcore players just actively pushing content? It makes us no better than the hardcore WoW players that say "All people who play FF14 are just super-casual players who want to sit around Limsa and ERP all day" -- and considering the fact of the issues with Group Finder being purged of brothels for gil; wouldnt that strengthen the argument?

Regardless: The argument is MMO-Populations are projections based upon monopoly money things. Again any website that touts that dead games with no servers have a playerbase have no reason to be taken seriously. If one of their statistics is "how popular is their subreddit/forums" -- it might as well be considered troll.

So to me its down to this:
1) MMO-Population's metric make no sense and shouldnt be used by anything other than measuring trends.

OR

2) MMO-Population's numbers are correct -- but FF14 somehow has worse player retention per active sub than a WoW that has been touted to be worse than WoD/BFA and is entering in a content drought after its initial patch; but also that FF14 has a smaller active playerbase than both WoW Classic and Old School Runescape via MMO-P's MMO Growth page.

I know which one is probably the easiest one to choose here.