Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Mansion]

I definitely get that.

Though honestly I wasn't invested in Emet-Selch or the SB post patches either leading into SHB, but I ended up loving SHB, so maybe they'll pull that off again here.

From experience, I have more fun trying to imagine / reading people's theories about the upcoming expansions than playing X.4 and X.5 MSQ patches. The end of Stormblood was especially dry because of the whole secret they wanted to keep about the 5.0 destination.

I don't expect a lot from 5.5 either, I guess we'll have a tease of the new melee job through Zenos' new weapon, a bit more drama from Fandaniel but no clear guidance about what Endwalker will precisely be about.

[Veloran]

The issue I think most people have with Zenos is that he really comes off as one-dimensionally evil. He has no interest in speaking to anyone about anything, his only motivation is "the hunt", and the only story avenue for his character as it is is to be put down like a mad dog. I think the fear right now is that he'll just continue sitting on his throne with a bored look on his face until WoL gets around to directly challenging him, maybe he kills some characters for drama, then he pulls out the big Primal for the final fight before inevitably losing again and dying for real this time. I'm at least hoping he mantles Hydaelyn instead of Zodiark because that at least inserts some mixed feelings into the whole thing.

They really need to pull some kind of miracle off with him to avoid Endwalker just feeling like a bunch of busywork leading to a climax that everybody can see from a mile away, which was one of Stormblood's big issues. Maybe they'll bait and switch him for a completely different antagonist halfway through or something.

[Recon1o6]

The issue I think most people have with Zenos is that he really comes off as one-dimensionally evil. He has no interest in speaking to anyone about anything, his only motivation is "the hunt", and the only story avenue for his character as it is is to be put down like a mad dog. I think the fear right now is that he'll just continue sitting on his throne with a bored look on his face until WoL gets around to directly challenging him, maybe he kills some characters for drama, then he pulls out the big Primal for the final fight before inevitably losing again and dying for real this time. I'm at least hoping he mantles Hydaelyn instead of Zodiark because that at least inserts some mixed feelings into the whole thing.

They really need to pull some kind of miracle off with him to avoid Endwalker just feeling like a bunch of busywork leading to a climax that everybody can see from a mile away, which was one of Stormblood's big issues. Maybe they'll bait and switch him for a completely different antagonist halfway through or something.

He's not even a decent one dimensional villain. A one dimensional villain can still be entertaining. Final fantasy has got a long line of interesting villains of various persuasions, including some memorable one dimensional villains and recurring foes (which is one thing ff14 lacks to some). Zenos however has long outstayed his welcome and lacks the personality and player motivation needed to be a good recurring foe.

to a lot of people he's barely more than a walking plot device. If Zenos really was that desperate for another fight, he could quite easily ignore fandaniel and just carve a bloody swathe to Eorzea until the wol showed up. He was used as an excuse to write Varis out the plot before he could be confronted, and to dispose of the Black rose which shouldn't really have come up at all after it was destroyed offscreen by Gaius.

If a villain is going to be sitting on his throne, then he needs to be doing something. Plotting, ordering minions about, being used as a set piece for introducing new characters like Varis did for Emet-selch.
Fandaniel, for all his annoying tendencies, is already turning out a better villain by virtue of doing something other than sit on his arse. There's nothing more damning to a character than the audience being bored of them.

[Vyrerus]

He's not even a decent one dimensional villain. A one dimensional villain can still be entertaining. Final fantasy has got a long line of interesting villains of various persuasions, including some memorable one dimensional villains and recurring foes (which is one thing ff14 lacks to some). Zenos however has long outstayed his welcome and lacks the personality and player motivation needed to be a good recurring foe.

to a lot of people he's barely more than a walking plot device. If Zenos really was that desperate for another fight, he could quite easily ignore fandaniel and just carve a bloody swathe to Eorzea until the wol showed up. He was used as an excuse to write Varis out the plot before he could be confronted, and to dispose of the Black rose which shouldn't really have come up at all after it was destroyed offscreen by Gaius.

If a villain is going to be sitting on his throne, then he needs to be doing something. Plotting, ordering minions about, being used as a set piece for introducing new characters like Varis did for Emet-selch.
Fandaniel, for all his annoying tendencies, is already turning out a better villain by virtue of doing something other than sit on his arse. There's nothing more damning to a character than the audience being bored of them.

Gaius and Estinien didn't and could not destroy all of the Black Rose. The Garleans under Varis had constructed more manufacturing facilities. Their task would have been endless and always a step behind.

[KageTokage]

I'm honestly half-hoping they have another twist like in ShB where it seems like we're at the end due to our fated encounter with Zenos being at hand, but it turns out stopping him and Fandaniel doesn't actually cease the Final Days and the bigger threat that Zodiark and Hydaelyn were simply forestalling finally comes to light.

Except this time make it actually happen at the level cap and after we've visited all six zones to make it less obvious.

[Mansion]

They really need to pull some kind of miracle off with him to avoid Endwalker just feeling like a bunch of busywork leading to a climax that everybody can see from a mile away, which was one of Stormblood's big issues. Maybe they'll bait and switch him for a completely different antagonist halfway through or something.

Maybe the problem is that they sort of changed their mind about Zenos mid-way. I don't think they put a lot of depth in his character when he was planned as the 4.0 villain, and it looks like they decided to do something more of him that would happen later, and we have yet to see what it is in 6.0.
For me that's the main problem: Zenos is just there. He has not been a dynamic villain in 4.0 like Fordola and Yotsuyu have been, and the build ups (Rhalgr and the assassination in Doma) led to nothing given how plural the Stormblood sotryline was. Then his resurrection was both unsurprising and uninteresting from 4.3 to 4.5(where Elidibus and the empire were more the main threat), his parallel story in 5.0 to 5.3 was too brief to have an impact and the actually big deal of throwing the Empire in civil war has been eclipsed once again by Norvrandt story and then Elidibus. 5.4 just has yet another scene of him that is meant to be foreshadowing something.

Zenos has been a background issue too long for me to actually care. This makes his fascination with the WoL even more awkward in my eyes. I get that it will be a compilation of these small details to make something out of him in 6.0, but as of today, there is so little about him that has been diluted over so long that I can hardly care about him. As I said I don't remember where, I'm pretty sure 6.0's big deal will be more about the consequences of Fandaniel's action than Zenos himself.

I'm honestly half-hoping they have another twist like in ShB where it seems like we're at the end due to our fated encounter with Zenos being at hand, but it turns out stopping him and Fandaniel doesn't actually cease the Final Days and the bigger threat that Zodiark and Hydaelyn were simply forestalling finally comes to light.

Except this time make it actually happen at the level cap and after we've visited all six zones to make it less obvious.

I expect Zenos to merge with Zodiark to some extent and it will be "Two birds one stone". Fandaniel being the level 88-89 trial. Or the other way around.

[ChaseNetwork]

Zenos, Round 1: Solo Duty
Zenos, Round 2: Solo Duty
Zenos, Round 3: Dungeon Boss
Zenos, Round 4: Trial Boss - Possessing Shinryu
Zenos, Round 5: Trial Add - Torturing Memory of Tsukuyomi
Zenos, Round 6: Solo Duty - Possessed by Elidibus
Zenos, Round 7: Solo Duty - Elidibus' Memory Lane

Endwalker, the vaunted coming of Zenos, Round 8!

[Kesey]

Maybe the problem is that they sort of changed their mind about Zenos mid-way. I don't think they put a lot of depth in his character when he was planned as the 4.0 villain, and it looks like they decided to do something more of him that would happen later, and we have yet to see what it is in 6.0.
For me that's the main problem: Zenos is just there. He has not been a dynamic villain in 4.0 like Fordola and Yotsuyu have been, and the build ups (Rhalgr and the assassination in Doma) led to nothing given how plural the Stormblood sotryline was. Then his resurrection was both unsurprising and uninteresting from 4.3 to 4.5(where Elidibus and the empire were more the main threat), his parallel story in 5.0 to 5.3 was too brief to have an impact and the actually big deal of throwing the Empire in civil war has been eclipsed once again by Norvrandt story and then Elidibus. 5.4 just has yet another scene of him that is meant to be foreshadowing something.

As we know they plan the story at least 2 years in advance and generally plot 5 years ahead, I'd say this isn't true and the intention to make Zenos as valuable pawn for an Ascian was the long shot all along.

And again Zenos isn't the big bad. Fandaniel is the big bad. I don't think it will matter in the long run if Zenos gets a redemption arc, or if he picks up the weapon of the new melee class. Zenos is only an escalated threat of violence backing an Ascian we know nothing about other than he has a secret and has been playing coy in a very over dramatic sense since he walked into story.

[LineageRazor]

Zenos, Round 1: Solo Duty
Zenos, Round 2: Solo Duty
Zenos, Round 3: Dungeon Boss
Zenos, Round 4: Trial Boss - Possessing Shinryu
Zenos, Round 5: Trial Add - Torturing Memory of Tsukuyomi
Zenos, Round 6: Solo Duty - Possessed by Elidibus
Zenos, Round 7: Solo Duty - Elidibus' Memory Lane

Endwalker, the vaunted coming of Zenos, Round 8!

Ooh - how about Zenos as EVERY BOSS OF 6.0!
81 Dungeon Boss: Zenos
83 Dungeon Boss: Zenos
84 Trial: Zenos sitting on his throne
85 Dungeon Boss: The dungeon has nothing to do with Zenos, but when we reach the boss, Zenos descends from the sky Sepihroth-style, slays the boss, then we fight Zenos!
87 Dungeon Boss: Zenos and Fandaniel tag-team
89 Dungeon Boss: The whole dungeon is a mystical Journey to the Center of the Mind inside Zenos's head.
89 Trial: Zenos possessing Zodiark

The level 90 dungeons are optional, but somehow also involve Zenos, in spite of the fact that we wiped him out along with Zodiark.

SE Devs: So, we heard you all can't get enough of Zenos, so here you go - all Zenos, all the time! Our best villain EVER!

[Mansion]

And again Zenos isn't the big bad. Fandaniel is the big bad.

I agree. But it makes the whole Zenos issue even worse. Because he is still there while serving no real purpose from a writing point of view.

Of course we know the writers plan things ahead, but that doesn't mean they don't change their minds either. And they aren't fault proof either, that's just fine. But from a purely technical point of view, even if we have a big "so that's his purpose!" in 6.0, Zenos has been a burden more than anything of FFXIV's storytelling since 4.0. Pulling too much on the reader/player's expectations is not a good thing, no matter how good the resolution is. It wasn't so apparent for Zenos because there was a lot going on in the story to cover him up.
At least in my opinion!