Zenos: The Big Bad (The Feedback Thread, Part 1)

[Denishia]

sciencebot's excellent post on why Zenos as the thematic foil for the reprehensible ideology of Emet/Ascians/Garleans and the might makes right/only some people are worthy is the strong, dare I say sole, reason for his existence as a villain, let alone a continuing one into EW.
For all that everyone raved at how sympathetic Emet Selch was in ShB, I spent all of it ranting at Emet because I actively disagreed with his motivations ("14 'lesser copies' means you have 13 times the number of possible friends, you jerk") and looked forward to the final boss fight to defeet him. Emet was engaging even if his character wasn't as entertaining or sympathetic as others thought, and he was a good foil to the Exarch and Thancred and the central theme of ShB.
Zenos on the other hand, I never liked. At no point during SB or after. The kindest thing I could say was that he was so flat as a character that he made Fordola and Yotsuyu by contrast stronger. Both I understood and emphasized with their motivations and backstories while also feeling that drive to defeat them. Zenos never gave me any stronger emotion than meta disappointment and boredom. Part of it is because of the character tropes I despise , "Hunter of the Greatest Game" and Blood Knight who only has interest in fighting are at the bottom tier of shonen villains, only working if they are minor villains in a cast of more interesting and story-useful antagonists. Especially because I started playing XIV out of love of FF's story-telling Zenos as the dark mirror for the WoL doesn't really work if you are a DoH/L main at heart, after all. Also why the DRK 30-50 questline fell flat for me because I played my WoL without the resentment of helping others out via fetch quests which that job questline needs as a lynchpin. Also can't stand the "Katanas are Superior" trope and thought Zenos's visual design was unappealing, so it was almost comical how much he was tailor-made to not work as an antagonist for me personally.
But for EW he's getting rid of the katana and the ugly armor, so he's less of an eyesore
Fandaniel also isn't a villain archetype I find most compelling, but at least his personality contrasts to Zenos's apathy. (A danger of his character - if you have a character whose defining trait is ennui, then it doesn't take long for readers to respond to that boredom with boredom of their own)

But Zenos as the toxic culmination of might makes right and only the 'right' people matter, giving the player a chance to combat that, gives him a purpose. As a symbol, he can be internally and personality-wise flat as he isn't a character but a force.

Even if the only moment I'm really looking forward to is a dialogue option that has so far been denied to me, where the WoL is able to tell Zenos that fighting him is as lackluster and boring a prospect to the WoL as Zenos believes fighting anyone but the WoL is to them. Please let me have that.

[Beddict]

snip

I very much enjoyed this and it's a great take on Zenos. It's one of the reasons I am excited for Endwalker, to see the conclusion to the WoL vs. Zenos.

I agree that whether our WoL feels a kinship with Zenos is very individual. My WoL fights for the people she loves and all that, but she also loves a challenge and... while fighting is a necessity, she also enjoys it. She's also a very lonely person. Everyone that she holds dear admires her and holds her waaaaaay up there, and because of that none among them really see her as an equal. She's an inspiration to them and they aspire to become more like her. The only people who have remotely treated her like an equal (or someone who could be their equal) were Zenos and Emet. So at least in my case, the things that my WoL has in common with Zenos are: loneliness, a strong desire for challenge, a penchant for violence, a desire for a human connection based in equality.
In the meantime, she trained as a dark knight and learned to accept these 'darker' things about herself. While Zenos is worse in every respect, she still understands him, while everyone else (including Ascians) is completely puzzled by him and views him as a beast.

I also feel kinship towards Zenos. Not 100% on account of my WoL not being a psychopath, but the similarities are there. My WoL first arrived in Gridania seeking glory as an adventurer. I love exploring dungeons and beating up Primals. I love the lore of FFXIV and have explored every area to learn as much about the world of Eorzea as possible. I love Savage raiding with my friends because of the challenge I get when going up against a tough fight. I love collecting Relics and I'm working on my final Zodiac Relic because it feels good to get shiny new weapons. That's pretty similar to Zenos, a man who spent his youth training or reading books, a man who lives for the thrill of the fight, a man who collects weapons he finds interesting and even brings a golf bag into battle so he can switch weapons on the fly. Even though that's where the similarities end, I gotta admit that I get where Zenos is coming from in enjoying a good fight. He goes to extreme lengths to get those fights though, and he's completely amoral which is terrible, but he makes for a good foil to my WoL.

[Veloran]

The issue I think most people have with Zenos is that he really comes off as one-dimensionally evil. He has no interest in speaking to anyone about anything, his only motivation is "the hunt", and the only story avenue for his character as it is is to be put down like a mad dog. I think the fear right now is that he'll just continue sitting on his throne with a bored look on his face until WoL gets around to directly challenging him, maybe he kills some characters for drama, then he pulls out the big Primal for the final fight before inevitably losing again and dying for real this time. I'm at least hoping he mantles Hydaelyn instead of Zodiark because that at least inserts some mixed feelings into the whole thing.

They really need to pull some kind of miracle off with him to avoid Endwalker just feeling like a bunch of busywork leading to a climax that everybody can see from a mile away, which was one of Stormblood's big issues. Maybe they'll bait and switch him for a completely different antagonist halfway through or something.

[Recon1o6]

The issue I think most people have with Zenos is that he really comes off as one-dimensionally evil. He has no interest in speaking to anyone about anything, his only motivation is "the hunt", and the only story avenue for his character as it is is to be put down like a mad dog. I think the fear right now is that he'll just continue sitting on his throne with a bored look on his face until WoL gets around to directly challenging him, maybe he kills some characters for drama, then he pulls out the big Primal for the final fight before inevitably losing again and dying for real this time. I'm at least hoping he mantles Hydaelyn instead of Zodiark because that at least inserts some mixed feelings into the whole thing.

They really need to pull some kind of miracle off with him to avoid Endwalker just feeling like a bunch of busywork leading to a climax that everybody can see from a mile away, which was one of Stormblood's big issues. Maybe they'll bait and switch him for a completely different antagonist halfway through or something.

He's not even a decent one dimensional villain. A one dimensional villain can still be entertaining. Final fantasy has got a long line of interesting villains of various persuasions, including some memorable one dimensional villains and recurring foes (which is one thing ff14 lacks to some). Zenos however has long outstayed his welcome and lacks the personality and player motivation needed to be a good recurring foe.

to a lot of people he's barely more than a walking plot device. If Zenos really was that desperate for another fight, he could quite easily ignore fandaniel and just carve a bloody swathe to Eorzea until the wol showed up. He was used as an excuse to write Varis out the plot before he could be confronted, and to dispose of the Black rose which shouldn't really have come up at all after it was destroyed offscreen by Gaius.

If a villain is going to be sitting on his throne, then he needs to be doing something. Plotting, ordering minions about, being used as a set piece for introducing new characters like Varis did for Emet-selch.
Fandaniel, for all his annoying tendencies, is already turning out a better villain by virtue of doing something other than sit on his arse. There's nothing more damning to a character than the audience being bored of them.

[Vyrerus]

He's not even a decent one dimensional villain. A one dimensional villain can still be entertaining. Final fantasy has got a long line of interesting villains of various persuasions, including some memorable one dimensional villains and recurring foes (which is one thing ff14 lacks to some). Zenos however has long outstayed his welcome and lacks the personality and player motivation needed to be a good recurring foe.

to a lot of people he's barely more than a walking plot device. If Zenos really was that desperate for another fight, he could quite easily ignore fandaniel and just carve a bloody swathe to Eorzea until the wol showed up. He was used as an excuse to write Varis out the plot before he could be confronted, and to dispose of the Black rose which shouldn't really have come up at all after it was destroyed offscreen by Gaius.

If a villain is going to be sitting on his throne, then he needs to be doing something. Plotting, ordering minions about, being used as a set piece for introducing new characters like Varis did for Emet-selch.
Fandaniel, for all his annoying tendencies, is already turning out a better villain by virtue of doing something other than sit on his arse. There's nothing more damning to a character than the audience being bored of them.

Gaius and Estinien didn't and could not destroy all of the Black Rose. The Garleans under Varis had constructed more manufacturing facilities. Their task would have been endless and always a step behind.

[Mansion]

They really need to pull some kind of miracle off with him to avoid Endwalker just feeling like a bunch of busywork leading to a climax that everybody can see from a mile away, which was one of Stormblood's big issues. Maybe they'll bait and switch him for a completely different antagonist halfway through or something.

Maybe the problem is that they sort of changed their mind about Zenos mid-way. I don't think they put a lot of depth in his character when he was planned as the 4.0 villain, and it looks like they decided to do something more of him that would happen later, and we have yet to see what it is in 6.0.
For me that's the main problem: Zenos is just there. He has not been a dynamic villain in 4.0 like Fordola and Yotsuyu have been, and the build ups (Rhalgr and the assassination in Doma) led to nothing given how plural the Stormblood sotryline was. Then his resurrection was both unsurprising and uninteresting from 4.3 to 4.5(where Elidibus and the empire were more the main threat), his parallel story in 5.0 to 5.3 was too brief to have an impact and the actually big deal of throwing the Empire in civil war has been eclipsed once again by Norvrandt story and then Elidibus. 5.4 just has yet another scene of him that is meant to be foreshadowing something.

Zenos has been a background issue too long for me to actually care. This makes his fascination with the WoL even more awkward in my eyes. I get that it will be a compilation of these small details to make something out of him in 6.0, but as of today, there is so little about him that has been diluted over so long that I can hardly care about him. As I said I don't remember where, I'm pretty sure 6.0's big deal will be more about the consequences of Fandaniel's action than Zenos himself.

I'm honestly half-hoping they have another twist like in ShB where it seems like we're at the end due to our fated encounter with Zenos being at hand, but it turns out stopping him and Fandaniel doesn't actually cease the Final Days and the bigger threat that Zodiark and Hydaelyn were simply forestalling finally comes to light.

Except this time make it actually happen at the level cap and after we've visited all six zones to make it less obvious.

I expect Zenos to merge with Zodiark to some extent and it will be "Two birds one stone". Fandaniel being the level 88-89 trial. Or the other way around.

[Kesey]

Maybe the problem is that they sort of changed their mind about Zenos mid-way. I don't think they put a lot of depth in his character when he was planned as the 4.0 villain, and it looks like they decided to do something more of him that would happen later, and we have yet to see what it is in 6.0.
For me that's the main problem: Zenos is just there. He has not been a dynamic villain in 4.0 like Fordola and Yotsuyu have been, and the build ups (Rhalgr and the assassination in Doma) led to nothing given how plural the Stormblood sotryline was. Then his resurrection was both unsurprising and uninteresting from 4.3 to 4.5(where Elidibus and the empire were more the main threat), his parallel story in 5.0 to 5.3 was too brief to have an impact and the actually big deal of throwing the Empire in civil war has been eclipsed once again by Norvrandt story and then Elidibus. 5.4 just has yet another scene of him that is meant to be foreshadowing something.

As we know they plan the story at least 2 years in advance and generally plot 5 years ahead, I'd say this isn't true and the intention to make Zenos as valuable pawn for an Ascian was the long shot all along.

And again Zenos isn't the big bad. Fandaniel is the big bad. I don't think it will matter in the long run if Zenos gets a redemption arc, or if he picks up the weapon of the new melee class. Zenos is only an escalated threat of violence backing an Ascian we know nothing about other than he has a secret and has been playing coy in a very over dramatic sense since he walked into story.

[Mansion]

And again Zenos isn't the big bad. Fandaniel is the big bad.

I agree. But it makes the whole Zenos issue even worse. Because he is still there while serving no real purpose from a writing point of view.

Of course we know the writers plan things ahead, but that doesn't mean they don't change their minds either. And they aren't fault proof either, that's just fine. But from a purely technical point of view, even if we have a big "so that's his purpose!" in 6.0, Zenos has been a burden more than anything of FFXIV's storytelling since 4.0. Pulling too much on the reader/player's expectations is not a good thing, no matter how good the resolution is. It wasn't so apparent for Zenos because there was a lot going on in the story to cover him up.
At least in my opinion!

[KageTokage]

I'm honestly half-hoping they have another twist like in ShB where it seems like we're at the end due to our fated encounter with Zenos being at hand, but it turns out stopping him and Fandaniel doesn't actually cease the Final Days and the bigger threat that Zodiark and Hydaelyn were simply forestalling finally comes to light.

Except this time make it actually happen at the level cap and after we've visited all six zones to make it less obvious.