Paladin button consolidation for 6.0

[Colt47]

It's not a minority that suffer from RSE: This is one of the emerging problems with gaming for a while now. I've actually been looking for solutions to the issue since there are a few options, but part of it still falls into the design of the game itself. Right now, the ideal solution mechanically would be something like single handed keyboard (think RedThunder One-Handed Mechanical Gaming Keyboard) that has a compressed row for the Alt, ctrl, shift, and tab key so that dedicated row shifting keys can be placed directly next to them. Even if you do that their still is a limit on the number of controls one can feasibly mount on the keys without going into mouse clicking or mapping off the standard. (like doing F and V for extra skill slots)

Also it's not about getting all the actions at once during the leveling: It's about getting something core online fast so people don't just flake out and lose interest, or don't even have a clue about how the final rotation of the class works at end game. BLM is a poster child of how bad it can get with trying to keep rotation iterative rather than transformative with leveling.

PLD could easily introduce Atonement combo before adding the DOT combo at early levels and introduce the spell combo far earlier. OGCD weaving is sort of how you build on it since those aren't directly linked to the rotation as much as are supplementary to it. Also spell combo + weaving the extra OGCDs like Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within can be tricky because of how row and key mapping works. If you only have 4-8 slots per row, which row are you putting the OGCDs on? If you shift to spell combo in burst phase, you'd have to also flip back to the prior row where the OGCDs are mapped, and then flip back at uneven intervals. It's not really "interesting" as much as "annoying", and this is why PVP combos are kind of needed. You might not get completely away from that kind of weirdness, but at least it is heavily reduced.

I mean this isn't new man, this has been going on forever and SE just doesn't do anything. Controller players have been bothered by it for a while on the complex classes, keyboard + mouse has been having issues but has a few extra tools through peripherals that can deal with it, but it still requires extra physical hardware to pull off. At the end of the day you want to be able to control everything from memory via keystroke in order to keep track of the action on the boss fights, since the boss fights are far less forgiving in mistakes in this game than in others. Savage and Ultimate in particular are heavily choreographed in order to cover for the weakness from skill bloat.

[Shin96]

You guys should tone it down a little, harder to write a post when you have two people arguing and using insults.

Fact of the matter is, SE is cutting down on actions to make it easier for casual players. Casual players ask for more simplification = SE listens. Until they ask for more and you can imagine what follows after. I as much am very close to quitting this game because my favourite job DRK feels awful. The same crowd of people that bawled their eyes out when Sekiro dropped saying it should have an easy mode are asking for games like this to be easier. I cannot logically understand them, as I am more of a commitment person rather than drop in and out, I also like to challenge myself and grow. What's the point of doing anything when it's given to you with no effort required!

Pretty sure they will most likely gut PLD just as they did with DRK. It's the new poster boy so it'll happen one way or another. You can contribute this to people having anxiety playing Tank when this role was never suited for them to begin with. Also, try to be respectful with each other, SE makes the last call as to what they will keep for PLD or not.

[Lyth]

The number of buttons doesn't equate with complexity. The average MOBA has you pressing like what, 4-5 buttons in total and yet is miles beyond anything this game can offer in complexity. It's about decisions per minute, not buttons per minute.

We know from prior experience that the game designers are going to likely add in a few new actions. They are also likely to remove a few new actions. Which would you prefer to see: similar abilities that are context dependent be merged on to the same button (i.e. Sheltron if I don't assign a target, Intervention if I click on someone else), or would you rather they start ripping random abilities out of your kit and fingers crossed hope that things still work? The latter was what they did to DRK moving from Heavensward to Stormblood, and it wasn't pretty.

At the moment, excluding role actions, we have PLD at 26 actions, GNB at 28, DRK at 23, and WAR at 24. At least some of that difference is bloat. If you identify and get rid of the bloat, you'll have a more engaging job to play when new abilities get rolled in on top of them. It's time to declutter. If it doesn't spark joy for you, into the bin it goes.

[whiskeybravo]

PLD has too many buttons. I liked playing it occasionally back in the day but its the main reason I stopped after SB. Spirits Within could go, it used to have some purpose but definitely just button bloat now, and kinda weird considering they removed the HP penalty that used to be on Upheaval but left/put it here? Feels like it's as good a candidate as any for pruning. They would still need to eliminate/consolidate at least 2 or 3 other abilities to make it more controller friendly imo.

At the moment, excluding role actions, we have PLD at 26 actions, GNB at 28, DRK at 23, and WAR at 24. At least some of that difference is bloat. If you identify and get rid of the bloat, you'll have a more engaging job to play when new abilities get rolled in on top of them. It's time to declutter. If it doesn't spark joy for you, into the bin it goes.

I was going to mention, as much as GNB has going on it's not near as bloated feeling as PLD for some reason.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Simple matter of fact, Spirits Within is not an issue, nor is the tank single target support abilities for skill bloat. Spirits Within is equivalent to Carve and Spit on DRK, Upheaval on WAR, and Blasting Zone on GNB, as far as I am concerned, so unless you want to blanket remove all four skills, I'm confident, an attempt would also be met with protest if the suggestion was made, so why is it different that it's just in regards to Paladin?
If Paladin has too many oGCDs to manage, then what of Dark Knight and it's 6-7 or GNBs 4 to manage, and that's not including the defensive cooldowns.

I am aware there will be some culling in some way shape or form in Endwalker, I am not deluded to think otherwise. I just think the reasons given for removal of Spirits Within and Support skills by Kan, are out of personal inability to use rather than to the benefit and allow for further job development.

Off globals exist in this game, and will continue to exist in this game, while decision making is an important part of complexity, having to track off globals still require awareness that said skills have come off of cooldown.

[whiskeybravo]

Simple matter of fact, Spirits Within is not an issue, nor is the tank single target support abilities for skill bloat. Spirits Within is equivalent to Carve and Spit on DRK, Upheaval on WAR, and Blasting Zone on GNB, as far as I am concerned, so unless you want to blanket remove all four skills, I'm confident, an attempt would also be met with protest if the suggestion was made, so why is it different that it's just in regards to Paladin?
If Paladin has too many oGCDs to manage, then what of Dark Knight and it's 6-7 or GNBs 4 to manage, and that's not including the defensive cooldowns.

I am aware there will be some culling in some way shape or form in Endwalker, I am not deluded to think otherwise. I just think the reasons given for removal of Spirits Within and Support skills by Kan, are out of personal inability to use rather to the benefit and allow for further job development.

Off globals exist in this game, and will continue to exist in this game, while decision making is an important part of complexity, having to track off globals still require awareness that said skills have come off of cooldown.

Well, imo it's not a matter of managing oGCDs. But if you don't play on a controller then you probably won't get it. PLD is the only job I've see that you have to use the expanded controller hotbars if you want to have access to everything you would normally have/should have access to. These are not hotbars you want to use continually throughout a rotation, they're inefficient and finicky. And, as Lyth pointed out, GNB has more actions but for some reason it's not a problem on controller, even when factoring in sprint, role skills and potions. It's a matter of button bloat, or poor design, plain and simple.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Well, imo it's not a matter of managing oGCDs. But if you don't play on a controller then you probably won't get it. PLD is the only job I've see that you have to use the expanded controller hotbars if you want to have access to everything you would normally have/should have access to. These are not hotbars you want to use continually throughout a rotation, they're inefficient and finicky. And, as Lyth pointed out, GNB has more actions but for some reason it's not a problem on controller, even when factoring in sprint, role skills and potions. It's a matter of button bloat, or poor design, plain and simple.

I found GNB worse on controller to play than Paladin before I switched to kb/m. It was only about 9-10months I switched to kb/m.

I used to have STR pots on third hotbar, for both Paladin and Gunbreaker, but Paladin I could fit all my offensive skills on my first hotbar, and defensive skills on second, while Gunbreaker, I had offensive skills spill over onto my second hotbar.

[Colt47]

Well, imo it's not a matter of managing oGCDs. But if you don't play on a controller then you probably won't get it. PLD is the only job I've see that you have to use the expanded controller hotbars if you want to have access to everything you would normally have/should have access to. These are not hotbars you want to use continually throughout a rotation, they're inefficient and finicky. And, as Lyth pointed out, GNB has more actions but for some reason it's not a problem on controller, even when factoring in sprint, role skills and potions. It's a matter of button bloat, or poor design, plain and simple.

Yeah it sounds like you are hitting the same issue I am with it. The job has two different "signal abilities" that indicate a burst phase: Fight or Flight and Requiscat. Normally in a burst you want your burst ability on the same "level" as the OGCDs, since it is pretty intuitive after some play sessions to press a bar swapping key to engage an alternative burst pattern.

Paladin has two burst patterns, so what happens is that when you go into Requiscat, you might press a different bar shifting key to get to it, but then the bindings for the OGCDs are on a different alternative bar. So you end up having to swap back to the other alternative bar to check on the OGCDs mid burst. That isn't something you want to do in the middle of a savage run or something when you want to make sure you are hitting all the buttons on proper cooldown. On top of which we have atonement that is sort of like a miniature fel cleave spam phase that isn't linked to the Fight or Flight burst directly.

Basically, where gunbreaker is really well oiled and everything is linked to one another in some way, the paladin has a very loose and decoupled kind of feel to it. DK has a bit of that going, but really it is more of an illusion with dark knight since you start using the MP gauge as a sort of timer.

[Mikey_R]

As someone who has played this game on controller from the start, with my first class being Gladiator, and still using it to this day, never had an issue with PLD on controller. If you are struggling to properly weave your oGCDs into your magic phase, then it sounds like you either need to practice, or, you need to rethink your hotbar layout.

For the record, at the moment, and it has been this way since the start of ShB, I have Requiescat, CoS and Spriits on L2 X, Square and Triangle. Holy Spirit and Confiteor are on the expanded R2 -> L2 X and Square. Never had an issue with lining anything up or not properly fingering my buttons.

[whiskeybravo]

I found GNB worse on controller to play than Paladin before I switched to kb/m. It was only about 9-10months I switched to kb/m.

I used to have STR pots on third hotbar, for both Paladin and Gunbreaker, but Paladin I could fit all my offensive skills on my first hotbar, and defensive skills on second, while Gunbreaker, I had offensive skills spill over onto my second hotbar.

I mean, fair enough. You can put the "important" stuff on 2 hotbars but something has to be left off and other jobs don't seem to suffer with that problem.

That's an interesting point though. Perhaps the difference is because I can set up GNB hotbars similar to my WAR, whereas PLD has totally different flow of abilities and I can't at all work it out to be similar as those 2, and I'd like to level it at least, as I enjoyed having all my tanks at 50/60/70 just in case. But between these 2 issues I really just have no desire to even try.