Thread: Paladin button consolidation for 6.0

Don't see what's so hard about pressing more buttons. At this point why not just turn all actions into one button while you're at it.

Originally Posted by Shin96

Don't see what's so hard about pressing more buttons. At this point why not just turn all actions into one button while you're at it.

So the thing is, I'm not talking about dumbing down rotation but the guy above thinks I am, because they are going to replace whatever gets taken off. I have no idea why he is acting the way he is, but he isn't making any sense. And the fact he saying that the class doesn't need more of it's rotation early on means he is basically grinding nothing BUT end game, so he isn't seeing the forest for the trees. He's basically going off of the ye old "you aren't really a player unless you do X". There's a lot to unwrap with that since part of that frustration is because of SE and how they handled things on their end and actually segmented the savage raiding from... just about everything with the anti-parser stuff. This has been going on for years so I just kind of let them have their peace.

I actually 100% understand his points, though I don't think he understands them.

1) The job must have some level of management to be engaging. ("You sound like a casual noob asking devs to dumb down jobs because you can't git gud.")

2) End Game players are afraid of jobs becoming more accessible ("I've mained Paladin since I've started playing roughly 6 years ago, clearing every Savage from Creator up to and including current raid tier, and cleared two out of three Ultimates...")

But there are huge problems with his assessment. First is this one...

1) "No jobs do not need their end game rotation early on, otherwise new skills we learn between previous level cap and and new level cap with expansions will be underwhelming..."
A) Under what basis are you making this rather bold accusation? Have you gone back and tried it recently? Maybe you should and tell me that isn't hot garbage going levels 1-30. The only thing SE did was try and make it quick so the pain wouldn't last long.

2) "Spirits Within, is 740 potency and 1000mp, per minute, and one of Paladins signature abilities from ARR..."
A) And I'm saying that it is pointless with having Atonement because they could easily put the MP regen from that ability and spread it on Riot Blade + Atonement, replacing it with an ability that can be used on rotation that also can serve as a stun in older content. Nobody uses the damn shield slam outside of retro content and he should know that doing end game. Yet here he is, making accusation number 2 up above. Unless he wants to bestow his wisdom upon us on how useful shield slam is in Alexander ultimate?

3) "[target another player are taking time away from doing the role during a savage fight] all tanks support abilities are oGCDs, they are weave-able abilities that do not interfere with tanking..."
A) Fair point, and it is why I said that it was an opinion and probably not something substantial in the edited posting. The raw amount of vitriol in the response is just abhorrent to any kind of constructive conversation...

4) "In savage you should never have to use Clemency unless, healers died, and trying to save a run so they can be raised or to help push through prog. Intervention you should throw onto any buster that isn't invulned and otherwise ideally you should be using for auto attacks so you don't overcap gauge, and won't put you out for Sheltron uses."
A) The point on the intervention is that accessibility is an issue with jobs. Not sure how controller players manage with some of them, but this is how it works: MMO mice have 3 buttons per row and most people only finger memorize rows 1-2, with sometimes fiddling clumsily with rows 3 and 4. Controller players I believe have two sets of 4 buttons with one representing the D-pad and the other the ABCD buttons. 16-18 buttons are probably the max someone can really handle on either effectively, and 18 is an odd number for the controller player since they got to hot swap between two sets of 8 buttons. On the upside, they have two levels of 8 buttons where as an MMO mouse player has 3-4 layers of 6 buttons, so the controller player has advantage with some setups over the controller player.

It shouldn't be the players job to figure out the peripheral they need to use to be able to handle all the buttons. I've been MMO gaming for the past 10+ years: my left hand is in horrible shape and had to remove a ganglian cyst caused by excessive usage because of how much over stretching the index finger had to engage in (Started with FFXIV once button bloat happened). swapping to the MMO mouse saved my right hand and wrist, but unfortunately the left is a major problem since even with optimized controls, I'm still contorting my hand to press shift / alt / ctrl while pressing movement keys.

The thing is I'm being rather lenient with Aodhan. Reality is I think they totally should nuke some of the damn buttons. I don't like the fact that I need to be punished or encouraged by some internet spamming idiot to have physical injury induced as a part of "git gud". He can take his "git gud" and shove it.

Originally Posted by Colt47

So the thing is, I'm not talking about dumbing down rotation but the guy above thinks I am, because they are going to replace whatever gets taken off. I have no idea why he is acting the way he is, but he isn't making any sense. And the fact he saying that the class doesn't need more of it's rotation early on means he is basically grinding nothing BUT end game, so he isn't seeing the forest for the trees. He's basically going off of the ye old "you aren't really a player unless you do X". There's a lot to unwrap with that since part of that frustration is because of SE and how they handled things on their end and actually segmented the savage raiding from... just about everything with the anti-parser stuff. This has been going on for years so I just kind of let them have their peace.

You literally said three oGCDs is too much, you actually did ask for dumbing down. You said Support skills are useless, more dumbing down.

Also I do a lot of casual content too at various different levels, and it doesn't bother me missing half my toolkit when sync'd down because I have enough skills and abilities at those levels to complete that content. So don't presume to generalise me as "he only does end game content" because that's you talking out of your a** yet again.
Nor did I say you weren't "a player unless you did x". You started listing off your "accolades" on Paladin, as if it gave you some sort of authority on Paladin, so I engaged with you my own accolades.

Originally Posted by Colt47

I actually 100% understand his points, though I don't think he understands them.

1) The job must have some level of management to be engaging. ("You sound like a casual noob asking devs to dumb down jobs because you can't git gud.")

2) End Game players are afraid of jobs becoming more accessible ("I've mained Paladin since I've started playing roughly 6 years ago, clearing every Savage from Creator up to and including current raid tier, and cleared two out of three Ultimates...")

1) Yes Jobs do need to have some degrees of management otherwise it is mindless press button in same order ad nauseam.

2) There is nothing wrong with accessibility so long as it doesn't make jobs braindead.

Originally Posted by Colt47

But there are huge problems with his assessment. First is this one...

1) "No jobs do not need their end game rotation early on, otherwise new skills we learn between previous level cap and and new level cap with expansions will be underwhelming..."
A) Under what basis are you making this rather bold accusation? Have you gone back and tried it recently? Maybe you should and tell me that isn't hot garbage going levels 1-30. The only thing SE did was try and make it quick so the pain wouldn't last long.

2) "Spirits Within, is 740 potency and 1000mp, per minute, and one of Paladins signature abilities from ARR..."
A) And I'm saying that it is pointless with having Atonement because they could easily put the MP regen from that ability and spread it on Riot Blade + Atonement, replacing it with an ability that can be used on rotation that also can serve as a stun in older content. Nobody uses the damn shield slam outside of retro content and he should know that doing end game. Yet here he is, making accusation number 2 up above. Unless he wants to bestow his wisdom upon us on how useful shield slam is in Alexander ultimate?

3) "[target another player are taking time away from doing the role during a savage fight] all tanks support abilities are oGCDs, they are weave-able abilities that do not interfere with tanking..."
A) Fair point, and it is why I said that it was an opinion and probably not something substantial in the edited posting. The raw amount of vitriol in the response is just abhorrent to any kind of constructive conversation...

4) "In savage you should never have to use Clemency unless, healers died, and trying to save a run so they can be raised or to help push through prog. Intervention you should throw onto any buster that isn't invulned and otherwise ideally you should be using for auto attacks so you don't overcap gauge, and won't put you out for Sheltron uses."
A) The point on the intervention is that accessibility is an issue with jobs. Not sure how controller players manage with some of them, but this is how it works: MMO mice have 3 buttons per row and most people only finger memorize rows 1-2, with sometimes fiddling clumsily with rows 3 and 4. Controller players I believe have two sets of 4 buttons with one representing the D-pad and the other the ABCD buttons. 16-18 buttons are probably the max someone can really handle on either effectively, and 18 is an odd number for the controller player since they got to hot swap between two sets of 8 buttons. On the upside, they have two levels of 8 buttons where as an MMO mouse player has 3-4 layers of 6 buttons, so the controller player has advantage with some setups over the controller player.

It shouldn't be the players job to figure out the peripheral they need to use to be able to handle all the buttons. I've been MMO gaming for the past 10+ years: my left hand is in horrible shape and had to remove a ganglian cyst caused by excessive usage because of how much over stretching the index finger had to engage in (Started with FFXIV once button bloat happened). swapping to the MMO mouse saved my right hand and wrist, but unfortunately the left is a major problem since even with optimized controls, I'm still contorting my hand to press shift / alt / ctrl while pressing movement keys.
The thing is I'm being rather lenient with Aodhan. Reality is I think they totally should nuke some of the damn buttons. I don't like the fact that I need to be punished or encouraged by some internet spamming idiot to have physical injury induced as a part of "git gud". He can take his "git gud" and shove it.

1) So the whole part of a new expansion is getting new actions to play with, so in your view we should get them all at once and then that's it no new actions between 80-90 ... BOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIINNNGGGGGGGG. So between 1-30, you spend very little time between 1-30, especially with boost exp gains, and if you happen to get a duty in roulettes that puts you in that range, at most you will spend 15-20 minutes maximum, boohoo, not like that small fraction of time is gonna affect your entire time playing the game. The content is design that way so new players can actually learn to play their respective jobs and not get overwhelmed by a full toolkit right away.

2) At no point did I acknowledge Shield Bash, this is my first time mentioning the skill in my discordance with you, and the most recent use for this skill was add phase in Shiva Savage, for the Earthen Sprites, when progging or DPS was hot garbage. But I don't even have Shield Bash on my hotbar ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I still don't see the need for the removal of Spirit's Within, the more button to manage the better, if it's too much for you, go play Warrior.

3) The vitriol is warranted if you can call it that, when you ignorantly claim that tank support to be useless, out of anecdotal evidence instead of fact, spreading of misinformation is a detriment to the community and should not be condoned.

4) Accessibility issue is false, simple macro like /ac "Intervention" <2> would go onto your co tank, and occupies one hotbar slot instead of needing to target a party member. Said macro can be modified to <mo> for mouse over, or <tt> target's target.
I started out on PS4, thus I played on controller for 4years+ and not had an issue targeting manually. Not sure where you're getting your information in regards to the third and fourth row of an mmo mouse, I've not had any issues memorizing 7-12 on mine, I find it quite comfortable, and it made the world of difference swapping from controller to kb/m.

I'll be blunt, I've had to censor a great deal of words or hold my tongue, when speaking to you thus far to hold some modicum of respect and keep within the terms of the forums, so do not call me an idiot which is breach of the ToS, and this is a forum, where by I can critically address anything and everything you say without stooping to insults. Sorry that you had to suffer an injury, but I genuinely believe no job should be dumbed down to cater to a minority of the playerbase, simply because they might have suffered some injury that SE themselves can't remedy. Not trying to sound heartless, but that's a you problem. There is plenty of other jobs with a lower APM that can be easily played without having to affect the whole community at large to cater to one person, that's just entitlement to expect SE to do this.

It's not a minority that suffer from RSE: This is one of the emerging problems with gaming for a while now. I've actually been looking for solutions to the issue since there are a few options, but part of it still falls into the design of the game itself. Right now, the ideal solution mechanically would be something like single handed keyboard (think RedThunder One-Handed Mechanical Gaming Keyboard) that has a compressed row for the Alt, ctrl, shift, and tab key so that dedicated row shifting keys can be placed directly next to them. Even if you do that their still is a limit on the number of controls one can feasibly mount on the keys without going into mouse clicking or mapping off the standard. (like doing F and V for extra skill slots)

Also it's not about getting all the actions at once during the leveling: It's about getting something core online fast so people don't just flake out and lose interest, or don't even have a clue about how the final rotation of the class works at end game. BLM is a poster child of how bad it can get with trying to keep rotation iterative rather than transformative with leveling.

PLD could easily introduce Atonement combo before adding the DOT combo at early levels and introduce the spell combo far earlier. OGCD weaving is sort of how you build on it since those aren't directly linked to the rotation as much as are supplementary to it. Also spell combo + weaving the extra OGCDs like Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within can be tricky because of how row and key mapping works. If you only have 4-8 slots per row, which row are you putting the OGCDs on? If you shift to spell combo in burst phase, you'd have to also flip back to the prior row where the OGCDs are mapped, and then flip back at uneven intervals. It's not really "interesting" as much as "annoying", and this is why PVP combos are kind of needed. You might not get completely away from that kind of weirdness, but at least it is heavily reduced.

I mean this isn't new man, this has been going on forever and SE just doesn't do anything. Controller players have been bothered by it for a while on the complex classes, keyboard + mouse has been having issues but has a few extra tools through peripherals that can deal with it, but it still requires extra physical hardware to pull off. At the end of the day you want to be able to control everything from memory via keystroke in order to keep track of the action on the boss fights, since the boss fights are far less forgiving in mistakes in this game than in others. Savage and Ultimate in particular are heavily choreographed in order to cover for the weakness from skill bloat.

Simple matter of fact, Spirits Within is not an issue, nor is the tank single target support abilities for skill bloat. Spirits Within is equivalent to Carve and Spit on DRK, Upheaval on WAR, and Blasting Zone on GNB, as far as I am concerned, so unless you want to blanket remove all four skills, I'm confident, an attempt would also be met with protest if the suggestion was made, so why is it different that it's just in regards to Paladin?
If Paladin has too many oGCDs to manage, then what of Dark Knight and it's 6-7 or GNBs 4 to manage, and that's not including the defensive cooldowns.

I am aware there will be some culling in some way shape or form in Endwalker, I am not deluded to think otherwise. I just think the reasons given for removal of Spirits Within and Support skills by Kan, are out of personal inability to use rather than to the benefit and allow for further job development.

Off globals exist in this game, and will continue to exist in this game, while decision making is an important part of complexity, having to track off globals still require awareness that said skills have come off of cooldown.

Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Simple matter of fact, Spirits Within is not an issue, nor is the tank single target support abilities for skill bloat. Spirits Within is equivalent to Carve and Spit on DRK, Upheaval on WAR, and Blasting Zone on GNB, as far as I am concerned, so unless you want to blanket remove all four skills, I'm confident, an attempt would also be met with protest if the suggestion was made, so why is it different that it's just in regards to Paladin?
If Paladin has too many oGCDs to manage, then what of Dark Knight and it's 6-7 or GNBs 4 to manage, and that's not including the defensive cooldowns.

I am aware there will be some culling in some way shape or form in Endwalker, I am not deluded to think otherwise. I just think the reasons given for removal of Spirits Within and Support skills by Kan, are out of personal inability to use rather to the benefit and allow for further job development.

Off globals exist in this game, and will continue to exist in this game, while decision making is an important part of complexity, having to track off globals still require awareness that said skills have come off of cooldown.

Well, imo it's not a matter of managing oGCDs. But if you don't play on a controller then you probably won't get it. PLD is the only job I've see that you have to use the expanded controller hotbars if you want to have access to everything you would normally have/should have access to. These are not hotbars you want to use continually throughout a rotation, they're inefficient and finicky. And, as Lyth pointed out, GNB has more actions but for some reason it's not a problem on controller, even when factoring in sprint, role skills and potions. It's a matter of button bloat, or poor design, plain and simple.