Thread: Paladin button consolidation for 6.0

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

No, you are not. You fail to realize that the game auto-targets when you are hit when not targeted or hit with an ability. People would just end up creating /ac <Spell Name> <me> macros for when they need to hit a large number of targets around them such as in trash pulls. Leaving Holy Circle and Holy Spirit separated is fine.

You're right, my first suggestion was better.

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Going to have to pick something guys. PLD is getting new skills in EW whether we want them or not, and we're going to lose something to make room for them.

Originally Posted by Colt47

The reason I'm not particularly fond of paladin at the moment, even though it is definitely improved over prior versions, is that the idea of a tank is to mitigate damage to the group by taking the hits from the boss monster and weave defense cooldowns / support heals to assure that you keep standing. Paladin having three off global instant attacks to manage is a bit much and I think that they should have pruned some things that they didn't go through with.

If we really want to get down to it:

1) Spirits within is completely worthless. The purpose of it is to regain MP, but Atonement already does it and is part of the primary rotation along with riot blade, and the damage is inconsistent on it due to the tanks HP pool constantly being in flux. So there's no reason to even keep it at this point.
2) Atonement is basically combo motion 4-6 on the Royal Authority tree. It makes it more forgiving to have it off the combo chain, but at the same time eats up a button that really could be used for something else. I'm 50/50 on it.
3) Confiteor only has meaning when Requiscat is active, so why the heck does it have it's own button? It's like a button for buttons sake, you can still miss it one way or another, and it gets in the way of other useful cooldowns on the bar.
4) The only cooldown that I've ever used on tank that involves the funky shield tree is Sheltron. I've never once used either of the team oriented cooldowns because it requires too much effort to get a minimal benefit off. It's the same with the warrior skills and it's why I think that Cover and Intervention are kind of worthless. Just too much going on in serious end-game content to make those viable when you got an enrage timer to beat.
5) Paladin by far has the worst self healing skill of the bunch with clemency. I know they wanted to sort of mimic a cure type spell on paladin, but with it having a cast time and such a low payoff when not on requiscat combo, it really isn't worth the effort to use. I feel like it is there for cheesing old style content and that is about it.
6) Divine Veil and Passage of Arms are probably okay. I think Divine Veil can be a little tricky to proc sometimes when you want it, since it relies on others to heal you during a critical moment just to get the shield, so Divine Veil is sort of up there with Spirits Within on being an unpredictable bucking bronco.

Maybe you best learn the ins and outs of Paladin before giving critical analysis of the job. Making moronic statements like, "three off global instant attacks to manage is a bit much" are you actually serious? this isn't even remotely close to difficult in the slightest. They're as you said off-global which means you can press in between global cooldowns, if you're having problems with that then you probably have issue with your hotbar set up. At most you press two off-global cooldowns in between one global cooldown, it is not rocket science or anyway difficult, you can even manage Paladin off-globals by single weaving if you struggle to press two buttons between a global cooldown.

1) Spirits Within, is something extra to press to keep things engaging (not by much but it's still something to keep track of nonetheless). The only change Spirits Within needs is the removal of the stupid HP penalty aspect.

2) Atonement is fine as it currently is, the only possible change is, not allowing it to break combo, but personally I like that it does, as it forces you to be more careful with your rotation. Consolidation of Atonement with Royal Authority isn't really required as far as I'm concerned.

3) Confiteor I don't mind being merged onto Requiescat since it is only active when under the Requiescat buff.

4) This right here is a serious WTF moment. "it requires too much effort" how is it too much effort, you have targeting macros that ease the use of support skills, and it's not exactly difficult to target party members via kb/m or controller anyways. You do realise Intervention can be one of the strongest single target mitigation support skills, If you happen to have Rampart and Sentinel active at the same time, it is somewhere near 30% damage reduction (I'm sure someone can give the exact number that's better at maths than I). Tank support skills are meant to be used in conjunction with other skills, not the sole ability mitigating damage, except maybe TBN on Dark Knight, fight depending. "Just too much going on in serious end-game content to make those viable when you got an enrage timer to beat." You're literally talking out of you a**, since end game is where all these "useless skills" get the most usage, and they help ease the burden for the healers. If you can't make that tiny an effort to make use of these skills either stop playing tank, or git gud and learn to use them.

5) Paladin is the worst of the four tanks for self healing, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, as it has passive block to make up for the lack of passive healing the other three tanks have. Clemency is a situational skills that should only be used for dire situations, when healers are dead, to help push through prog, or you're soloing content, and it is good for those situations, it doesn't need to be more than that. It's thematic, it works and doesn't need changing.

6) Divine Veil requires you to know the fight, being able to make use of the initial 30 second window allows you to maximise the use of Divine Veil, which can be super helpful for healers, so have two veils on the party in a 60 second window. This usually only happens in statics more so than in random PUGs. The only changes for Veil I'd like to see, is an Excog effect after the initial 30 second window passes, and the shield applying to the Paladin who used Veil in the first place.

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

10% with nothing, 20% with Rampart, 25% with Sentinel and 35% if you use both Rampart and Sentinel.

Thank you for the numbers wasn't sure about the the boosted Intervention numbers, tend to forget over time lol

edit: for some reason assumed Diminishing Returns applies to Intervention for some reason.

Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Maybe you best learn the ins and outs of Paladin before giving critical analysis of the job....

Feel free to have an opinion of your own and shoot down what you want. I think the job would work a 1000 times better without a worthless ability that only acts as a mana regen button when we have two other abilities that do the same thing. No, I don't think removing the HP penalty aspect makes it any better. Yes, I think that support skills on a paladin that target another player are taking time away from doing the role during a savage fight. It's the job of the tank taking the hits to put up his mitigation and the heals to provide shields. The off tank maybe throws something on them, but really... this is just reminding me of warrior trying to use that ability that heals an ally when you hit stuff. It does so little you just don't care. Flavor points for the ability, and maybe in some cases it does have a purpose, but it could easily just go.

FYI I know the ins and outs of paladins. You assuming that someone having a different opinion than you on abilities means they don't know the class makes me wonder about you there.

Edit:

I actually have a lot more to say about the job than just ability cuts considering before I came here I level synched and ran it at 50, 60, and 70, did a savage e9s to get a feel for it there, practiced the rotation on a dummy for three days for an hour a day before stepping into savage, and also started a secondary character and ran it from level 1-30.

Come next expansion they absolutely need to get the rotation people use at end game online a LOT sooner. The job is absolutely under-gunning at levels 1-60. Atonement can easily come online far sooner as it is very similar in nature to fell cleave from warrior. Spirits within doesn't need to exist. Something more like Judgement Blade would be what I want, which would combine the benefits of shield bash into something we use more regularly (In Final Fantasy Tactics judgement blade applies applies STOP to an opponent, so stunning them would be perfectly fine).

I mean really the two skills that would be easiest to cut or merge into things is Shield Bash and Confiteor. Adding Judgement Blade would cut the need for shield bash and retain the classes ability to stun. Everything else is just opinion based preferences since when I'm running savage that is where rotation matters the most, and stopping to cast heals outside of requiscat combo is not something you'd want to do. I've never had to use the Intervention in savage and honestly, the few times I've done it people are already snap shotted by the attack so it doesn't really reduce damage (E10S with the blade is a good example. I've had luck using it on the orb phase, but the timing is tight)

Good for you, I've mained Paladin since I've started playing roughly 6 years ago, clearing every Savage from Creator up to and including current raid tier, and cleared two out of three Ultimates, UWU, TEA and have reached add phase in UCOB; I can say with absolute certainty you are talking s***. You sound like a casual noob asking devs to dumb down jobs because you can't git gud.

Spirits Within, is 740 potency and 1000mp, per minute, and one of Paladins signature abilities from ARR. The only issue with Spirits Within, is the HP penalty, but otherwise as stated before, it is something to track while doing rotation, which you press every 30 seconds, to get one under every Fight or Flight window, similar to Warrior's Upheaval, you keep off cooldown but ensure you always get one under every Inner Release window. Removing oGCDs will only make Paladin almost as braindead to play as Warrior. Spirits Within has it's uses and should remain in the toolkit.
"target another player are taking time away from doing the role during a savage fight" WTF are you talking about? all tanks support abilities are oGCDs, they are weave-able abilities that do not interfere with tanking nor does it interfere with your rotation, but work in the effort to mitigate damage, a tank's role in the first place. Also Nascent Flash on Warrior is 10% damage mitigation plus a portion of the healing the Warrior receives also giving to the Nascent Glint target. While you do not appreciate it, it still good practice to make use of these skills as best you can.

Also no you do not know Paladin inside and out, I'm sure in that statement.

As for your edit, No jobs do not need their end game rotation early on, otherwise new skills we learn between previous level cap and and new level cap with expansions will be underwhelming and takes away the fun of learning to adopt new rotations or modify previous expansion's rotation. You actually need to put effort in to learn.
Judgment Blade would be a pointless addition since we already have low blow in the tank role actions for stuns which is oGCD, and with the exceptions of most dungeon mobs and most bosses 50 or below, every other enemy you'll encounter will be immune to stun.
In savage you should never have to use Clemency unless, healers died, and trying to save a run so they can be raised or to help push through prog. Intervention you should throw onto any buster that isn't invulned and otherwise ideally you should be using for auto attacks so you don't overcap gauge, and won't put you out for Sheltron uses.