Paladin button consolidation for 6.0

[AvernusTyrfing]

And I don't see how reverting cover to the SB effect would address the idea of button consolidation.

I said that because the only reasonable and GOOD change to Cover would be reverting it back to SB Cover. Cover works in such unique way compared to all other tank cooldowns that merging it with any other skill would only be detrimental, in my opinion.

You say they work fine the way they do now, and you're right, but there is also nothing wrong with putting them on one button.

There is something wrong with it. The only way to merge Sheltron and Intervention would be to make it a budget TBN that gives 100% block, and in doing so would end up killing what makes Intervention unique.

[ItMe]

I said that because the only reasonable and GOOD change to Cover would be reverting it back to SB Cover. Cover works in such unique way compared to all other tank cooldowns that merging it with any other skill would only be detrimental, in my opinion.



There is something wrong with it. The only way to merge Sheltron and Intervention would be to make it a budget TBN that gives 100% block, and in doing so would end up killing what makes Intervention unique.

You seem to be under the impression I'm asking for a change in these skills.
Which I'm not.
You use Shelltron on only yourself.
You use cover and Intervention only on NOT yourself.
Why not double up?

Shelltron
Used on you: Shelltron
Used on ally: either the effect of cover or intervention (whichever they'd wish to consolidate).

Nothing would change.
You'd have access to all of your skills.
But you'd also have 1 less button to fit on your hotbar.

[ArianeEwah]

I disagree on merging Sheltron and Intervention nor Cover, and here is why:

Having multiple actions targeting an ally, and at least one of them having a "on yourself" or "on party member" effect, may cause the wrong effect to trigger when using another in succession. i.e. if you want to cover your partner, and Sheltron on yourself, it will end up being cover + intervention which is then wasted!

Ofc this issue doesn't affect other tanks because they only have 1 ability each that can target allies: WAR-Nascent Flash, DRK-TBN, GNB-Heart of Stone. Warriors Nascent Flash CAN also be targeted on self, but the effect is the same if you target an ally. Nevertheless, should your "tethered partner" die during Nascent Flash, both Nascent Glint and Nascent Flash effects will be lost, but I guess this is just a programming problem, intended or not.

[AvernusTyrfing]

You seem to be under the impression I'm asking for a change in these skills.
Which I'm not.
You use Shelltron on only yourself.
You use cover and Intervention only on NOT yourself.
Why not double up?

Shelltron
Used on you: Shelltron
Used on ally: either the effect of cover or intervention (whichever they'd wish to consolidate).

But you are asking for a change, merging those two skills IS a change to how they would work. Merging Sheltron and Intervention would not only need them to rework how both skills work, they would also need to rework the animation for it.

And besides, there simply is no way to merge Cover with Sheltron without drastically changing how Cover works.

[ArianeEwah]

But you are asking for a change, merging those two skills IS a change to how they would work. Merging Sheltron and Intervention would not only need them to rework how both skills work, they would also need to rework the animation for it.

And besides, there simply is no way to merge Cover with Sheltron without drastically changing how Cover works.

I don't think you got what "merging buttons" actually means! Merging a button of 2 separate actions doesn't change the effects of the actions, but the button triggers the effect of those actions under certain circumstances. In this case: if you target an ally with "button Sheltron" it triggers the effect of Intervention; if no target or an enemy is selected, the button triggers the effect of Sheltron. You don't need to change the effects of an action just to merge buttons!

[Jandor]

"Holy circle and Holy spirit combine so they function like Ast's gravity."

If both were merged they would have to lower the potency on it and thus the Requiescat rotation would end up being shafted and end up weaker, so they would have to make more adjustments somewhere else. There is no need to make such a change.

Holy Spircle: Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 350 to target, and 250 to all surrounding enemies.

Ez pz.

[ItMe]

I disagree on merging Sheltron and Intervention nor Cover, and here is why:

Having multiple actions targeting an ally, and at least one of them having a "on yourself" or "on party member" effect, may cause the wrong effect to trigger when using another in succession. i.e. if you want to cover your partner, and Sheltron on yourself, it will end up being cover + intervention which is then wasted!

Ofc this issue doesn't affect other tanks because they only have 1 ability each that can target allies: WAR-Nascent Flash, DRK-TBN, GNB-Heart of Stone. Warriors Nascent Flash CAN also be targeted on self, but the effect is the same if you target an ally. Nevertheless, should your "tethered partner" die during Nascent Flash, both Nascent Glint and Nascent Flash effects will be lost, but I guess this is just a programming problem, intended or not.

That's totally fair, and perhaps I was just not being clear, but I don't mean to suggest you put cover AND intervention as secondary effects on Shelltron.
I'm saying they could put EITHER as secondary effects.
I agree, they are unique and distinctly useful enough that I wouldn't want cover and intervention merged.
Personally I'd prefer Intervention as its effect (mitigation) is more in line with Shelltron's (mitigation) than cover (redirect incoming damage).

I don't think you got what "merging buttons" actually means! Merging a button of 2 separate actions doesn't change the effects of the actions, but the button triggers the effect of those actions under certain circumstances. In this case: if you target an ally with "button Sheltron" it triggers the effect of Intervention; if no target or an enemy is selected, the button triggers the effect of Sheltron. You don't need to change the effects of an action just to merge buttons!

Exactly.
Thank you for clearing this up~

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Ari made the most important point, that you can't look at other tanks, as the other tanks respective actions do the same thing to self or party member (except for GNB with Brutal Shell active, but that's negligible) regardless, where as merging would mean Sheltron / Intervention would have two completely different functions depending on who or what you have targeted. This would probably be more effort than worth in an attempt of button consolidation.

It boils back down to the programming issue as stated, I can see a lot going wrong, like targeting macro lagging out or target out of range for some reason or another, or even when manually targeting a party member, the game could most certainly error and use the wrong skill, and you end up wasting 50 gauge on Sheltron instead of Intervention as intended. I see no reason for gauge actions to be merged.

[ArianeEwah]

That's totally fair, and perhaps I was just not being clear, but I don't mean to suggest you put cover AND intervention as secondary effects on Shelltron.
I'm saying they could put EITHER as secondary effects.

That's how I did understand your suggestion. The issue I am seeing here is when you use both actions at the same time/double weave (for whatever reason) i.e. Sheltron button has both Sheltron and Intervention effect (would make most sense since they have the same CD), you use Cover (Cover is Cover) on your ally and then you want to use Sheltron, but end up using Intervention instead. The reason for this can be whatever: Missclick, too slow to change target (and we know how good targeting system in FF14 works, lol), or even lag.

So, unless absolutely necessary (because of button bloat) I would advise against merging them to prevent such situations.

Exactly.
Thank you for clearing this up~

You're welcome

[AvernusTyrfing]

I get that, perhaps i didn't make myself clear on what i was thinking about. (Was still a bit asleep back then). Aodhan above explained it a lot better than i did, it would end up being more effort than what is worth.

Either way, i really don't think a merge of Sheltron/Intervention is a good thing. For an example, myself and a couple of friends who play paladin use intervention with a <t> <2> macro for convenience, but if both were merged we would still end up with another button anyway (A <2> macro). It ends up not changing anything.