Adjustments to MCH design without reworking from scratch

[Raikai]

its so bad DNC adopted it with thunderous applause and even less control 15/30 second interludes isnt a entirety and i with how many things SB did wrong im shocked this is still a gripe with Eld MCH as it was the least of its concerns unless they werent playing it correctly. If you noticed ranged arent supposed to have generic 1-2-3 rotations as it isnt melee and needs abit of finesse to stand out and this was MCH compromise only to be reduced by the same flawed crap they avoided not only but even being less complex than most tanks and all of the melees

tbh the tools (Air, Auto, Drill, Bio) really didnt add much to layer out MCH in a interesting way or impactful way. along with queen its pure style and no substance being the only link to MCH core gameplay loop is naught since wildfire is reduced to a beta weaker and less frequent Tsubame-gaeshi. Least Auto is linked to heat without literally its only benefit leaving skills like ricochet as lateral as flamethrower.

Gauss barrel was pointless to a fashion and wouldve been easier just to replace it with a trait at 52 since it really is a fragment of HW MCH, but was a much better gauge skill than what we have now the battery is a shackle to what we used to have free control over and heat is a remedial resource since it only is used for rapid fire which no longer exists on our rotation and trivializes the heated rotation, what used to be earned and savored, to smut thats mind-numbing in its ridiculousness. Im very passionate about MCH so i hope what they do EW breathes fresh air to MCH not stagnate it to even more pointless fodder and false sense of speed smothing out mechanics with ogcds

Hm, while I find DNC rng quite annoying, isn't nearly as what SB MCH was. And when I sy 1-2-3 combo I mean the "filler", I'm fully aware of how it actually worked. I just think the filler combo isn't exactly a good place to add such level of randomness because it's basically where you spend most of your time at.

When I speak on the Tools, I surely mean more like the "fantasy" of using them rather than just the actual gameplay behind it. I know the implementation is quite "monotonous" as well, since they're basically just damaging abilities without any real interaction with a lot of stuff - but at least they're there.

I'm sorry to point out this, but your reply was really hard to read without commas :/

[Jirah]

Hm, while I find DNC rng quite annoying, isn't nearly as what SB MCH was. And when I sy 1-2-3 combo I mean the "filler", I'm fully aware of how it actually worked. I just think the filler combo isn't exactly a good place to add such level of randomness because it's basically where you spend most of your time at.

When I speak on the Tools, I surely mean more like the "fantasy" of using them rather than just the actual gameplay behind it. I know the implementation is quite "monotonous" as well, since they're basically just damaging abilities without any real interaction with a lot of stuff - but at least they're there.

I'm sorry to point out this, but your reply was really hard to read without commas :/

My bad on the comment thing lol

but i also argue a incredibly basic 1-2-3 isnt the best substitute no matter how many ogcd gcd they throw at you. Yea the randomness in its basic combo wouldnt normally work but with how often you have ammo it should be a non issue. Ive only spammed the same skill maybe 3 times the most waiting for ammo..along side Guass and Cooldown and Hot shot was well kept. SB had alot of things to be looking out for which worked well with its ammo based rotation. BRD back then had a similar font with bloodletter (Gauss round) Heavy shot (Split Shot) and Straight arrow (Hot shot) comparative speaking they both were unique but borrowing eachothers standard "rotations" with BRD lacking a 1-2-3 and getting dots.

among all this strife id love to see what would happen if SE didnt abandon its ammo and heat gauges, the tools wouldve benefited MCH kit with much needed aoe options and the best QoL of all, HYpercharge no longer needing to FT for heat. Battery no longer being a shackle, Air anchor giving MCH us the old Hot Shot buff. Provided some heavy adjustments it wouldve been great...it still can be great but MCH regardless what route its gonna take with even more removals, being clunky again, or worse nothing at all, I just hope it improves upon SHB. The very last thing i want and i hope MCH mains old and new want, is for the job to barley budge a inch.

[Raikai]

HYpercharge no longer needing to FT for heat.

Now that you mentioned this, I think actually it was one of the worst aspects of SB MCH for me. I'm all for jobs that reward clever usage and timing of skills, but the whole "Clip FT at 1 tick" (or something like that if I remember correctly) promoted a really abysmal "optimized" play.

At this rate, my expectations for EW's MCH are:
- Keeping up with the Tools "fantasy" - finally the job feels like a true Machinist and not just an acrobatic gunner (which would totally warrant its own job tbh);
- Make the AoE rotations more interesting;
- Rework Wildfire (as long as it's not extremely punishing for people without the perfect ping);
- An AoE version of battery spender: A new robot, or a tool that consumes battery instead... anything;

[Jirah]

Now that you mentioned this, I think actually it was one of the worst aspects of SB MCH for me. I'm all for jobs that reward clever usage and timing of skills, but the whole "Clip FT at 1 tick" (or something like that if I remember correctly) promoted a really abysmal "optimized" play.

At this rate, my expectations for EW's MCH are:
- Keeping up with the Tools "fantasy" - finally the job feels like a true Machinist and not just an acrobatic gunner (which would totally warrant its own job tbh);
- Make the AoE rotations more interesting;
- Rework Wildfire (as long as it's not extremely punishing for people without the perfect ping);
- An AoE version of battery spender: A new robot, or a tool that consumes battery instead... anything;

agreed again they adopted this tactic once again for DNC but DNC does it alot better with its nuke force and doing stuff, while ur about to burst for finish. What a concept. It was more one wish to have and while it was granted...it came at a cost with 70% of MCH kit wiped

"keeping up the tool fantasy" unless theyre removing skills i doubt this would be a issue but lets all stop begging for a separate gunner class and give MCH back its gunner elements im sorry but i just cant stand this mindset. Its like saying stop take away BRD arrows so we can have a ranger class or take away DRK magic attacks so we can have MAgic knight. We dont need to waste a critically limited job slot on somthing not only shallow but done before .

aoe battery skills wont make MCH any better unless they overhaul the turret system and i hope this isnt all we are getting but at the very least give us bishop back

[CKNovel]

At this rate, my expectations for EW's MCH are:
- Keeping up with the Tools "fantasy" - finally the job feels like a true Machinist and not just an acrobatic gunner (which would totally warrant its own job tbh);
- Make the AoE rotations more interesting;
- Rework Wildfire (as long as it's not extremely punishing for people without the perfect ping);
- An AoE version of battery spender: A new robot, or a tool that consumes battery instead... anything;

Half agree there. Don't we have enough AoE exclusive buttons? On the opposite, actions like Bio-Blaster or Auto Cross Bow are mostly absent when there is a single target.
Wildfire needs to go or to be heavily reworked. That goes without saying, that cooldown is a delayed 1200 potency.

About the tools fantasy, big agree. I really, really hope they rework flamethrower/add Chainsaw that replaces your 1-2-3 by new buttons through a cooldown but without having to follow 1-2-3.
For example using Flamethrower would put you in a "Flamethrower stance" for 10, 15s. Split shot would be replaced with a stronger single target GCD, slug shot by a GCD applying a short dot to the targets, clean shot by an AoE gcd.
Same would go for Chainsaw but at Melee ranged. I just hope we don't get Chainsaw but it's glued to the Automaton Queen.
Talking about the AQ, I don't think we need an AoE version, a cooldown that consumes like 20 Battery to deal AoE damage would do the trick but we'd fall again in the actions unused against a single target.

SB MCH wasn't bad, it was simply poorly executed.
Overheat tied to Flamethrower, the ammos "Wait 30s before the pull", the Auto turret you used to not care about but suddenly have to care about, most of the gameplay relying on Wildfire. It was a bunch of bad ideas.
I have a big wishlist for EW, but considering the recent reworks and 70 to 80, my expectations are very, very low.

[Jirah]

"Wait 30s before the pull", the Auto turret you used to not care about but suddenly have to care about, most of the gameplay relying on Wildfire. It was a bunch of bad ideas.
I have a big wishlist for EW, but considering the recent reworks and 70 to 80, my expectations are very, very low.

wait 30 seconds? was i doing MCH wrong this whole time? u never waited 30 seconds u needed to do hot shot first and u didnt want to waste ammo on it as Hot Shot was a passive buff u needed to upkeep but it absorbed ammo for some reason.

also I respectfully disagree on wildfire being MCh core a bad thing..yes ping issues but SHB didnt solve that so its still a thing even to this day, but it wasnt a bad core to have, akin to raging strikes or Devilment it was fine could use a few adjusting here and there and certainly do not think SHB solved this by making WF a literal afterthought on the verge of being removed. Beyond it all Wildfire needs to be completely redone, maybe even be the missing link to turrets somehow which dont fare much better either

also also MCH technically has alot of aoes they just dont have any spice, the only link is the spread and auto heat phase and id like to think FF14 has outgrown its need to spam somthing 10 times to spam somthing another 5 times. Aoe needs a redo too but idk very effy about new aoe options if itll just add to the clutter which MCH has in spades despite its low skill count

[Kabooa]

was i doing MCH wrong this whole time?

Probably.

There were 2 ammo and 3 ammo openers as standard, but Mach wasn't the only one who had pre-fight set up.

[Jirah]

Probably.

There were 2 ammo and 3 ammo openers as standard, but Mach wasn't the only one who had pre-fight set up.

I dont recall ever doing it like this but MCH back then wasnt as concrete lack of better terms. Id do Hypercharge Hot Shot Gauss Reload Split Slug then FT to begin the OH phase and use my last bullet to do Split to have 2 procs. Always did it this way and wasnt aware of other ways until the ladder half of savage and definitly never heard of people actively waiting for reload to reset to have free ammo but i guess thats to be expected akin to AST

[CKNovel]

wait 30 seconds? was i doing MCH wrong this whole time? u never waited 30 seconds u needed to do hot shot first and u didnt want to waste ammo on it as Hot Shot was a passive buff u needed to upkeep but it absorbed ammo for some reason.

also I respectfully disagree on wildfire being MCh core a bad thing..yes ping issues but SHB didnt solve that so its still a thing even to this day, but it wasnt a bad core to have, akin to raging strikes or Devilment it was fine could use a few adjusting here and there and certainly do not think SHB solved this by making WF a literal afterthought on the verge of being removed. Beyond it all Wildfire needs to be completely redone, maybe even be the missing link to turrets somehow which dont fare much better either

Yeah, there was multiple openers. I remember, at every wipe, having to reload, put on barrel, place turret... Hated those times. I don't remember the exact opener but you had to start with 3 ammos.
Hypercharge pre-pull, Hotshot+GR, Split shot, Slug shot+reload (Clean shot prepared), then Flamethrower. Break FT at OH with Split shot, WF+Reassemble then classic 3-2-3 with 2 heatblast and Overload.

Wildfire as the core wasn't a bad thing, not in HW. But in SB it was always the same wildfire, you had nothing to do between each wildfire except replacing turret and care about the heat gauge.
Gameplay was Wildfire -> play with proc -> Wildfire -> play with proc -> loop. With of course caring about the auto-turret.

[Jirah]

Wildfire as the core wasn't a bad thing, not in HW. But in SB it was always the same wildfire, you had nothing to do between each wildfire except replacing turret and care about the heat gauge.
Gameplay was Wildfire -> play with proc -> Wildfire -> play with proc -> loop. With of course caring about the auto-turret.

I sincerely think what we have instead isnt better. SB You had to place ur turret, upkeep Hotshot, Manage heat to avoid premature overheating with BS or "Cooldown" and while also keeping up ammo to have a optimized procs for wildfire. When the phase is over u still have to keep a eye on ur turruet lockout among everything else it wasnt just 1-2-3 and even then it had fluidity

SHb is literally just 1-2-3 all the time forever and for always, Drill is Gauss round but with more numbers and pomp and i aint complaining in this context besides the fact its a GCD AA is just drill with double the CD, Wildfire went form being core to being so offhanded that its hardly notable in MCH kit a far cry from SB. ur charges are rarley on since unless ur heat blasting the 30 sec CD isnt common and ur obligated to spam em without any how or when. due to this MCH has no core or heart that the whole kit gravitates toward leaving it feeling hollow. Before anything Wildfire must be redesigned, as radical as i am i know im not in the minority for that at the very least