The unrewarding state of physical ranged

[CKNovel]

Hello there,

This is another topic about the current state of physical ranged DPS, but this time in the context of the end of ShB Expansion. But first I’d like to point out that the problems aren’t only tied to the lower rDPS.
It is perfect timing to open this debate. There will be no more high-end content as Ultimate was delayed to 6.1, it’s been nearly 10 weeks since the last 8-man savage release and the development of 6.0 started.

Gameplay
The gameplay of MCH has been revamped due to 5.0 Rework, the job feels much better to play and it could be considered as the best MCH iteration. However, many MCH players claim that the job isn’t finished, that it lacks buttons and has boring gameplay. It mostly feels that the job has been designed for Dungeons due to all the AoE useless against a single target.

BRD is in its worst iteration. The job feels like it requires too much work for no rewards, the support aspect has been gutted in favor of DNC, The proc based gameplay has issues. The FF XIV Design team completely gave up on the job.

DNC, the most recent job, suffers from wasting proc but remains a correct, yet simple job. But it’s not excluded from having problems. Its contribution can be volatile due to relying on the dance partner and Devilment being a massive dice roll. rDPS wise It can be the best ranged like it can be the worst ranged.

The Support
Since 2.0, the ranged role was often a “Support DPS” role. However, as expansions were released, a bit of support was shaved from the jobs. Manasong and TPsongs were simplified then removed, the mitigation was nerfed, palisade completely removed.

Those are not necessarily bad decisions, but the problem is that they were never replaced with anything.

The Rewards
DPS is one of the rewards, but it’s not the sole reward. Yes, ranged DPS can be lower but many believe the “mobility tax” is way too high or that it makes non-sense due to mobility being overrated. Eden’s Verse, a tier requiring mobility, basically showed caster at the top and ranged at the bottom. It was a first in an expansion, during SB the rangeds were performing very well, In HW they were a bit too well performing and during ARR, there was only BRD.

But as a player, no matter the role, the reward is always the contribution to the party. Some jobs bring damage, others bring survivability, some bring support... And that’s where ranged role doesn’t make sense.

If we put aside the contribution to DPS, other contributions are way, way weaker than any other jobs. Weaker mitigation, weaker support, that cannot be excused by some “Mobility tax”.

Mobility is a key word in this topic. However it's not a reward, just a "plus" like the Dragoon being able to backdash or Ninja Shukuchi. The initial goal of ranged was to bait mechanics to create safespot for the team but that doesn't exist anymore. The most mobile role not contributing to the group mobility is kind of ironic.


In conclusion, the Ranged jobs profit from a lower skill floor, but that also comes with a ceiling that prevents the jobs from contributing to the party. That floor/ceiling unique to the Ranged role, the jobs feels boring, incomplete and unrewarding. No ranged especially shined during ShB.
I believe ranged role needs an overhaul as many tools were shaved, it drifted from the original “Support DPS” to just become a DPS with no casting or melee range.
SQEX needs to add depth to the role and add a unique gimmick to it.

[ssunny2008]

I´ve to disagree with a lots of statements above.

The biggest disappointment i still read out of it is "we need more dps." That´s again a thing you won´t even know without the grey-zoned damagemeter. I understand your point of "relying on other party members". That´s true. But tbh... if you´ve 3 week dps in your party, it doesn´t matter if your´re that high dps bard or dancer, you´ll fail.

The mobility tax is still worth a lot as much as those classes are easy to play. Just check the latest monk thread. My new friend sqwall wants to change monk completely, because of "QoL reasons", to not being frustrated, whatever. He claimed that his favorite classes are DNC, MCH, RDM and monk without any positionals or other stuff to get used too obviously.
What i want to say is, that players EXIST who can´t do better, who don´t want to improve or whatever. To have such easy to play chars with tons of mobility is a bless for them and that´s completely fine. With all the support abilities you can fit your job better by assisting the best DPS member in your party, who is probably the overall better player anyway. Medigation and group buffs are fine too and those phys. dps can always adjust for other party members in different without a damage loss. No matter if it´s that blackmage who doesn´t want to move or a badass mechanic, where you want that healer to stay still and cast his stuff.

Don´t get me wrong, i get your point, but if you asked me, SE should change their content line instead of buffing or "braindead" classes into nowhere. The content makes the difference and it has become too predictable and static. Players got used to it too. The RNG factors are always like "stack or spread", "Who gets the tether?", whatever.
Just an example from swtor. One endboss was based on 4 bosses at once. 1 shot random through the group, 2 had to be kited by the tanks with tankswap every X stacks. The last one had to be kited by a DD, which would be that phys. range dps. On top of that you´d a lot of debuffs that phys. range was able to cleanse to assist the healer. And all bosses had to fall within 40s, otherwise they come back with more health. Stuff like that is not a thing here. You´ve that one boss, maybe an addphase between the mechanics, but it´s nothing players really have to care about. Atleast in E11s and E12s healer have to heal and medigation makes some sense right now.

That said, the issue doesn´t rely on the phys. DPS, it´s a thing because the content is pretty primitive designed to give even bad players the chance to complete atleast 2 or 3 of 4 fights per savage tier. If we would get more mechanics like "the furthest player gets a mark to bring to point X, or debuffs here and there a bard could cleanse with less cooldowns too, something to kite, more than just AOE -> spread/stack -> AOE -> spread/stack -> repeat, then phys. range would make much more sense and an OT maybe too. Imagine how it felt when you actually had something to do as OT in the last tier. (Kiting adds or tanking ifrit for 30s, wow!)

[ssunny2008]

continue...

It´s a completely lack of repetitive boss design which lets nearly every class become boring at a time, especially when they continue with that and the casual class changes. Ultimate isn´t much better in it´s design, just a longer fight with more RNG moments.

SQEX needs to add depth to the role and add a unique gimmick to it.

Nearly every class needs that. The most subclasses works the same as i´ve stated here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5501942
It´s a sad thing. Monk has positionals permanently, NIN has atleast the ninjutsu you can use as you want. RDM has range and melee as a feature, but that is even not that big of a deal. You can stay close to the boss and still cast your range stuff. It would be another thing if you would do less damage when you´re within a 5m range to the boss or something.
All other classes are pretty standard or even pretty much the same thx to dumb downs. You press your CD´s every 90 or 120s to get a damage buff. You wait for RNG skills to procc. And you spam nonamed off GCD´s to do more damage, not to add something specific to your class or the raid. Next to that you do your highlighted 3-6 key rotation, meanwhile you´re waiting for the rest to show up again to click on it.
It´s pretty much the same on any class next to some niche features which doesn´t add something special to the gameplay. Phys. range are not alone with it. SE should stop to "balance" everything out via braindead-mode. The next good thing which is getting destroyed, is that AST is able to switch between hots or shields. It´s a shame what´s happening here, because it gives the player the option to adjust to the co-heal or several bosses. God bless Yoshi for saving FF14, but i can already predict how Endwalker looks like and is going to be played. The game needs a turn-around tbh, not more of the same.

(Not to say something about: "We´re going to casualize PvP even more." It´s not like PvP is so much fun with limited skills, with 6.0 it doesn´t even matter which role you play. It won´t help in anyway, gj SE! But that´s another topic worth...)

[CKNovel]

As I mentionned, DPS is one of the problems. With the removal of MP/TP Management and the extra mitigation, ranged are nothing else but subDPS, that has to change.
When I mean "SubDPS" I mean gameplay wise in that context.
The goal of this post is not to change Ranged in 5.X, that's useless. But to establish a better ranged role for 6.X since it's currently in development.

-> There are people that can't/don't want to be better
Savage content is not for them if they are not willing to improve. I believe there is disabled people that cleared TEA. Dude has no fingers, he's the true legend out there.
The point is, anyone can push a job to a good level. It's just a matter of "want" or "don't wanna".
You don't design a car based on a portion that don't want to go over a certain speed. If grandpa don't want to go over 80 on a 130 road, he's free to do so but he shouldn't force everyone else to run at 80.
You don't design a knife based on a portion that can't be careful with it either.

No matter which angle you take, if people can't or are not willing, the product is not (and should not be) based on that portion.
However, you can design specific tools for specific needs. There is scissor that are not dangerous for kids to use or for left-handed.
You could see those as the Normal modes designed for the general public, Savage is designed for players that wants a higher challenge.
What's the point of going into the "harder" version if you want a "easy" experience?
That is a reason of why I want SQEX to add support abilities or better mitigation. The casuals won't see the difference or they won't care.

A lot of casuals don't use Second Wind or Arm's Length despite how good it is. But it barely change the outcome in their eyes.

-> Nearly every jobs needs depth.
Yeah, I agree with that. Every job should feels as complete as BLM.
Reworked job suffers a lot from that lack of depth/complexity.
Since MCH rework, I have room for 7 more actions on my toolbar. And I don't move my finger further than the 5 key.

Honestly, if Ranged remains in that state I'm going to SCH/SGE unless their DPS are still limited to 1 GCD, 1 Dot and 1 cooldown for some.

[ssunny2008]

snip

As i said, for me it´s up to the primitive mechanics who doesn´t force very much from the players or classes. Way too less debuffs, predictable damage income, no CD´s you´ve to safe for a DPS check, etc...
Of course phys. range should get more support stuff which is not just a point and click every 30s/60s. Especially MCH could make more with the kit. I would assist any deeper class design on every class. Actually only monk has it for me with the positionals. BLM might be a good example too, but away from the good kit, the gameplay isn´t that unique and heavily procc/boss-mechanic depended.

And i know ppl who want, but can´t because they´ve way too much brain lacks or whatever.

Honestly, if Ranged remains in that state I'm going to SCH/SGE unless their DPS are still limited to 1 GCD, 1 Dot and 1 cooldown for some.

100% It´s going to be a thing. I highly doubt that SE will put much efford in class changes. We get what we got with any addon, just a new environment and maybe some upgraded skills in damage. I won´t expect something deep when they start to push healers in 2 groups instead of leaving AST where he is and bringing something new and exciting with SGE. "Balance and work-wise" it´s copy&paste with new named buttons, a niche mechanic and just new skill animations as always.

[Cetek14]

I don't think it's that bad, but at the same it's not great either.

BRD - it feels more or less the same as before, it's even less clunky, but at the same time it feels just bland and boring. Something needs to be made about it, and additional support beside songs should be introduced.

DNC - it feels really okay, I have no real suggestions how to improve it, beside dance partner ability moved to lvl 10, because support job becomes support at lvl 60, which is extremely weird.

MCH - absolute failure, boring rotation and unpleasant visuals. Job needs actual real rework, make gunplay more satisfying, and connect it with machinery, because now it feels like a few parts duct taped together that don't even fit each other.

I would also say general problem with physical ranged is that all jobs fit very specific niche, while other games try to make it more general, like gunner, archer, etc. We have bard (which probably can satisfy hardcore archer fans), dancer, and machinist, which sounds okay on paper, but in reality it's a weird connection of machine using job with acrobatic arts, and gun is absolutely fake because we use it to release heat (which for some reason is constantly accumulated in our firearm).
Also 4th job could be added to make whole category more complete (after reworking MCH and fixing BRD).

[Liam_Harper]

The mobility tax is still worth a lot as much as those classes are easy to play.

We're at the stage where on some bosses the gap is so large that a 25-30th caster/melee dps will beat a 75th percentile phys ranged. It's actually much easier to play a melee at 25th than push a bard to 75th. Dancer is also in a rough spot where they only crawl out of the worst rdps slot at near max percentile with groups that are among the best in the world. The issue with the tax is that it doesn't account for skill at all. There is no reward for playing well. You could play really well and you'll still contribute less, you're just there for your 1% party buff.

Does that mean it's a role designed for people who aren't great at the game then? Not really. The gap shortens marginally, but the phys ranged are still down at the bottom even at the lowest ranks. For players at lower skill levels, the problem is often uptime, reaction speed and raid awareness which are far larger losses than interrupting a cast or two or breaking melee range for a few GCD's. Those same problems apply to phys ranged, even DNC is high apm and easy to drift cd's and Bard has high apm, 2 Dots, songs and a gauge to juggle. If you aren't great at the game sadly a phys ranged won't fix that issue and magically boost your group contribution. The advantage of mobility at a range and no positions exists but it's a very small one when you get any experience at playing.

[ssunny2008]

snip

As i´ve listed above, for me it´s up to the boss mechanics and how ppl got used to it, not to the classes. I understand the reasoning behind it and that there is an obviously safezone on caster / melees, because they´re somehow harder to play / have to take care about more. The bosses are just too predictable, works pretty much always the same and we barely get new exciting mechanics which force a dps loss for melees/caster. Especially if we compare them to melees, only E12s diamond dust is real pain (maybe even E9s somehow esp. for monks). It´s a bit of RNG and dangerous to keep uptime there. But overall for everything else like E10s, which has several mechanics where you´ve to leave the boss, melees got something against it. (backjump -> range attack -> dash, or ninjutsu / SSS) A lot of QoL and dumb downs of several classes did a lot to it obviously too.

Work needs to be done everywhere of course, but the content is viable with any class and dps farm isn´t even part of the game. Either the boss is dead or not. And with phys. ranges you´re that happy one, who can always adjust to everything easily at any time in every content. You´re not just that 1% raidbuff, maybe to the top tier metaslaves, but the most don´t care about that.

Another thing about the current tier is, how it´s calculated. I don´t know the scalings and if something got adjusted by SE. If the multipliers are the same like 3 tiers ago, of course the gap between the classes will get bigger and bigger as more stats will be thrown on us. It actually looks like that, when i check some numbers from the latest tier and compare them with the current one. If it´s really a thing, SE needs to fix that in the background. (Which is hopefully a thing with the 6.0 number changes.)

[ssunny2008]

Those same problems apply to phys ranged, even DNC is high apm and easy to drift cd's and Bard has high apm, 2 Dots, songs and a gauge to juggle. If you aren't great at the game sadly a phys ranged won't fix that issue and magically boost your group contribution. The advantage of mobility at a range and no positions exists but it's a very small one when you get any experience at playing.

Just got in my mind.

What you claim are player made issues or missplays. Those can happen everyone at any time, no matter the class you´re on. What can interupt melees or casters... is the game.

As caster you can get easily fckd up by bad RNG mechanics like the shadows in E10s. The first shadows and their placement, can decide a lot about how a BLM have to go on. Same with melees if the boss turns or that you´re forced in a spot like E9s platforms. I don´t have 1000 years of true north to get ride of this.

For example, i do every fight twice per week with 2 different statics as tank and monk. We´re away from practicing, but i still want to raise my DPS of course and especially E9s is a killer for me and i had a hard time to reach my 22k (90) on monk lately. All this just because the boss might turn or not. You get the wideangle or the other one first or not, which comes directly into all my cooldowns. Than i´m staying east on the platforms and have to spam RoE or true north all day long as long as the boss isn´t looking north directly, otherwise i have like 1mm to play my positionals. At E11s it makes even a difference if i´m on M1 or M2 as much as if fire or lightning side-mechanic comes first.
Tbh, i enjoy monk, but in such fights that just fck up my whole gameplay again and again i would like to be that phys. dps. I would move into a safezone and i can freely perform my rotation. I don´t have to adjust, i don´t have to click RoE/TN 10 times, i don´t get fckd up because the boss turns in a RNG direction, whatever happens.
When the game is throwing tons of shit on me, i wouldn´t care about it much if i would play phys. range. That there are some world 1 players with 26k dps, is because they practice and practice again. They´re going in with a top team, waiting for that lucky RNG, they time their buffs and and and... This is not possible with randoms or standard statics who play 2-3 times a week for a couple of hours to progress a little bit.

I´m up for any boss changes, more support skills and more depth (on every class), but not for more / similar damage on phys. range classes, as long as they can do whatever they want, whenevery they want. But of course, the gap shouldn´t be somewhere like 5k in the end. 1-2k in average based on the boss seems fine to me.

[CKNovel]

Work needs to be done everywhere of course, but the content is viable with any class and dps farm isn´t even part of the game. Either the boss is dead or not. And with phys. ranges you´re that happy one, who can always adjust to everything easily at any time in every content. You´re not just that 1% raidbuff, maybe to the top tier metaslaves, but the most don´t care about that.

Everyone relies on that 1%. Casual like most hardcore, it brings survivability aswell. Ignoring it would just be counter productive. (A little funfact: at the beginning of 5.0, ranged were SO LOW, it was theorycrafted that replacing a ranged with a BLM was a better choice for the "metaslaves")

If every content is doable and dps does not matter, then there's no reason why rangeds are at a lower DPS. That logic doesn't works, we could nerf SMN/RDM just because "They have a res" or because "They have too many instant casts" and just answer to them "But every content is doable.". Any counter argument to that logic would just fuel the need to increase ranged utility/DPS.

If DPS doesn't matter, then there's no reason to let the ranged at the bottom.
If DPS does matter, then ranged needs to be buffed.


Alas, if only it was DPS.
SQEX do not care for ranged during this expansion, they cared so little they set Tactician/Troubadour/Samba at 180s at the beginning of the expansion.

As for boss battle design, don't forget Eden's Verse. The most mobile tier, yet it was caster shining, not ranged, who remained at the bottom.
The difference between a good and a bad player, is that one is prepared to face any change of situation and to react accordingly. RNG is necessary in Savage as it makes the bosses less predictable.
If a Melee/Caster can't adapt, it's on them. Especially on content like E7S or E11S with very easy melee uptime.