Never getting a shadowbringer relic now

[AC9Breaker]

Imagine a game that requires effort to accomplish something.

[Blanchimont]

Imagine a game that requires effort to accomplish something.

Relic gear have always required effort to accomplish. Even the "easy" Anima weapons took quite a bit of effort with farming poetics and light to do. Zodiac weapons were definitely a lot harder though. In both ARR and Heavensward, the relic weapons were things you could simply grind for when you had the time.

The problem with the Eureka and Shadowbringers relics is that they're locked behind hardcore content, something that doesn't need another weapon when they already have extreme/savage gear. And no matter how much you argue, the design of Eureka, Bozja, CLL, and DR have more in common with hardcore content than softcore. It's just with fewer mechanics per phase and no hard time limit.

[Mavrias]

Relic gear have always required effort to accomplish. Even the "easy" Anima weapons took quite a bit of effort with farming poetics and light to do. Zodiac weapons were definitely a lot harder though. In both ARR and Heavensward, the relic weapons were things you could simply grind for when you had the time.

The problem with the Eureka and Shadowbringers relics is that they're locked behind hardcore content, something that doesn't need another weapon when they already have extreme/savage gear. And no matter how much you argue, the design of Eureka, Bozja, CLL, and DR have more in common with hardcore content than softcore. It's just with fewer mechanics per phase and no hard time limit.

what hard-core requirement? you don't need to do DR savage for the weapon. DR normal is no harder than your average 24 man. CLL isn't hard either, its got two very light dps checks so that if you're doing anything approaching a dps rotation you'll be fine. in the case of having more tanks and healers than dps, there are essences and lost actions that will help so long as you keep your GCD rolling.

I think they're more fun than the nier raids but I'd liken them more to Weeping City of Mhach or Orbonne Monastery on release than a savage raid.

[Blanchimont]

what hard-core requirement? you don't need to do DR savage for the weapon. DR normal is no harder than your average 24 man. CLL isn't hard either, its got two very light dps checks so that if you're doing anything approaching a dps rotation you'll be fine. in the case of having more tanks and healers than dps, there are essences and lost actions that will help so long as you keep your GCD rolling.

I think they're more fun than the nier raids but I'd liken them more to Weeping City of Mhach or Orbonne Monastery on release than a savage raid.

DR normal is significantly harder than your typical alliance raid. If you think it's easier, you're kidding yourself when people are spending 30+ minutes on that one fight alone. Not to mention the fact that two failed mechanics is instant death. You don't have this type of thing in normal content. Bozja as a whole has vulnerability stacks that don't degrade with time, something that is present in Extreme/Savage content rather than normal. Combine that with the lack of indicators and what you have is extreme without a hard time limit.

lmao hardcore? That's like thinking mayonnaise is spicy.

I suggest you take a look at what Bozja content has more similarities to because if you think that Bozja has more in common with your MSQ trial than an extreme trial, you might want to get your eyes checked.

[Mavrias]

DR normal is significantly harder than your typical alliance raid. If you think it's easier, you're kidding yourself when people are spending 30+ minutes on that one fight alone. Not to mention the fact that two failed mechanics is instant death. You don't have this type of thing in normal content. Bozja as a whole has vulnerability stacks that don't degrade with time, something that is present in Extreme/Savage content rather than normal. Combine that with the lack of indicators and what you have is extreme without a hard time limit.


I suggest you take a look at what Bozja content has more similarities to because if you think that Bozja has more in common with your MSQ trial than an extreme trial, you might want to get your eyes checked.

note that I said "comparative to Mhach and Orbonne" not "easier."

do point me to which savage or extreme fight has non degrading vulnerability stacks. two failed mechanics in two minutes is not much different than collecting vuln stacks in a 24 man or normal mode and dying to damage from things you're not supposed to be hit by anyway. example: failing concurrent giga slashes in e10 normal will kill just about anyone. doesn't matter much, you can still be raised. heck Square even made an item that you can pop preemptively to raise yourself.

I don't even know what you're referring to with lack of indicators. every fight shows at least a flash of an AoE marker before an avoidable attack goes off so there's an at least idea of what you got hit by.

spending 30 minutes one fight (not sure which fight in particular you're referring to) is due to three potential things:
1) people not knowing mechanics which isn't all that strange during week 1 and will improve with time as more people learn the fights
2) players not knowing rotations and not keeping GCDs rolling.
3) lack of or inefficient use of lost actions, essences, and items.

[Blanchimont]

note that I said "comparative to Mhach and Orbonne" not "easier."

do point me to which savage or extreme fight has non degrading vulnerability stacks. two failed mechanics in two minutes is not much different than collecting vuln stacks in a 24 man or normal mode and dying to damage from things you're not supposed to be hit by anyway. example: failing concurrent giga slashes in e10 normal will kill just about anyone. doesn't matter much, you can still be raised. heck Square even made an item that you can pop preemptively to raise yourself.

I don't even know what you're referring to with lack of indicators. every fight shows at least a flash of an AoE marker before an avoidable attack goes off so there's an at least idea of what you got hit by.

spending 30 minutes one fight (not sure which fight in particular you're referring to) is due to three potential things:
1) people not knowing mechanics which isn't all that strange during week 1 and will improve with time as more people learn the fights
2) players not knowing rotations and not keeping GCDs rolling.
3) lack of or inefficient use of lost actions, essences, and items.

As I said, that's the kind of crap you save for Extreme and Savage content, not stuff you want people who don't participate in that stuff to be doing. Attack indicators on cast is pointless. The whole point of having them is so that people know to get out of the way to avoid an attack. Having that flash attack indicator after it's more than 1/2 way through the cast is not enough time for people to react, making it completely pointless to have. You would be better off removing attack indicators from the entire game so that people are trained to look for attack indicators from the beginning rather than train them to look for attack indicators, then take them away like they have with Shadowbringers. The fact that they had them, then took it away just makes it bad design due to how inconsistent it is. Queen's Knight for example has the sword and shield thing with no indicators. It relies on the fact that you have seen the attack before to react to it. Much of DR is like this and what makes it such an awful experience.

Even with players not knowing mechanics, it shouldn't be taking 30 minutes for a single fight. The only reason is that DR is once again, not designed as casual content. It is plagued with one hit kills, lack of attack indicators, and just flat out lazy design because it feels like they just copied most of the Savage version over instead of changing the mechanics like they did with casual content in the past.

[Mavrias]

As I said, that's the kind of crap you save for Extreme and Savage content, not stuff you want people who don't participate in that stuff to be doing. Attack indicators on cast is pointless. The whole point of having them is so that people know to get out of the way to avoid an attack. Having that flash attack indicator after it's more than 1/2 way through the cast is not enough time for people to react, making it completely pointless to have. You would be better off removing attack indicators from the entire game so that people are trained to look for attack indicators from the beginning rather than train them to look for attack indicators, then take them away like they have with Shadowbringers. The fact that they had them, then took it away just makes it bad design due to how inconsistent it is. Queen's Knight for example has the sword and shield thing with no indicators. It relies on the fact that you have seen the attack before to react to it. Much of DR is like this and what makes it such an awful experience.

Even with players not knowing mechanics, it shouldn't be taking 30 minutes for a single fight. The only reason is that DR is once again, not designed as casual content. It is plagued with one hit kills, lack of attack indicators, and just flat out lazy design because it feels like they just copied most of the Savage version over instead of changing the mechanics like they did with casual content in the past.

do you feel this way about e9 - 12 normal as well? AoE indicators on various attacks are simply flashed a second before the attack lands (e.g. Art of Darkness, Implosion, Giga Slash, Brightflame, Burnt Strike, Cast, Release). Failing 2 mechanics in a row will often two shot you in those fights as well. The only difference is the color of the debuff you get, really. And the normal modes are typically considered casual content.

additionally, is dying in a fight truly so bad? so, its your first time in a normal DR, and you die because you don't know mechanics. now you've seen the mechanic so when you get raised (because you can be raised by traditional means unlike BA or DRSavage) you know how to execute it properly.

Fights are only taking 30 minutes because people are not using Essences or Lost Actions in addition to the usual people who are not doing rotations, not rolling their GCDs, etc cetera. When people are prepared the entirety of DR can be cleared in that 30 minutes.

[AC9Breaker]

Relic gear have always required effort to accomplish. Even the "easy" Anima weapons took quite a bit of effort with farming poetics and light to do. Zodiac weapons were definitely a lot harder though. In both ARR and Heavensward, the relic weapons were things you could simply grind for when you had the time.

The problem with the Eureka and Shadowbringers relics is that they're locked behind hardcore content, something that doesn't need another weapon when they already have extreme/savage gear. And no matter how much you argue, the design of Eureka, Bozja, CLL, and DR have more in common with hardcore content than softcore. It's just with fewer mechanics per phase and no hard time limit.

lmao hardcore? That's like thinking mayonnaise is spicy.