MSQ Needs Further Condensing

[Ammokkx]

If there is any kind of accusatory remark, the mods here will ban you. It is VERY difficult to have a proper conversation here.

Can't say that's been my experience so far.

With the way people talk around these forums, I'm shocked my post history hasn't been the grounds for a perma-ban yet.

[SturmChurro]

Can't say that's been my experience so far.

With the way people talk around these forums, I'm shocked my post history hasn't been the grounds for a perma-ban yet.

That's why I am 99% sure I'm getting reported constantly. Maybe you can guess why I can be so antagonistic sometimes.. It's not even just me who has been banned for slander, I know, not know of, I KNOW (seen their email) I am not a unique case at all. Others here have also been banned for slander, for what probably you, and definitely not I would consider "slander", at all.. I know someone who recently was banned for "slander", literally just a few weeks ago.

I'm being completely serious here. The mods can ban you for nearly anything if they want to. Not that this has anything to do with this thread, but God. I don't know maybe I just got needlessly paranoid, but the way tensions are in this thread, I feel like there are people here right now constantly reporting. This is why I don't chat in-game either. And speaking of that I HATE how people just assume that just means I want to be a jerk or something. I am actually very nice in reality, forum persona or discord chat besides the point. I give people the benefit of the doubt more often than I should. I can barely even say no, so on the occasion I do do group content I get roped into doing things for hours that I actually don't want to do. Like in borzja recently, apparently I am now a go to for running parties, I don't even want to.. No that any of this has to do with the thread, so I digress..

I'm just not arguing in bad faith, and I'm sure many others here aren't either. I think instead of cuts maybe, they could streamline it. As in, structure quests differently, so there is a mainline story, and other "main", but optional stories too. Maybe, and I am just freestyling this idea, they could encourage people to do the whole story, exp, etc. but not make it all mandatory. No cuts, always there. Maybe the structure and storytelling don't support this idea, but it's just an idea. There is no want from me to destroy it, I like the story, quite a bit. I've joked over discord that if people here only knew how much I actually liked the story, I'd be called out so fast..

Here's an old post of mine, something that might actually surprise people. For context:

I thought the Shadowbringers story was fantastic, I was enthralled from day 1. Completely invested. I read every line of dialogue, talked to the npcs before turning in/accepting/inbetween a quest (just talk - not a quest requirement). Some cliches are fine, and can make a story fun at times. The writing was overall top tier, it was great. I love that we had our old cast of characters from ARR throughout - Urianger getting the screen time he desperately deserved. This story had everything you could want in a good story, and Yoshida was not kidding when he said it was equivalent to a full single player rpg experience, it is. I took my time, and I am glad I did.

I particularly like Zenos as a character, and I am very happy to see him returning. Ardbert was a great addition, and I loved our interactions.

The areas were interesting, and nostalgic, the story dungeons are probably the best we have had, overall carried by their boss mechanics and design (aside from the first one which was a bit dull - bosses, again, made up for it).

My jaw literally dropped when I discovered the recreation of the Ascian city. It was amazing.

I have not played anything but a dancer, and I quite like it. I will have to level up my other major classes and roles before I can give an opinion on that. Nor have I completed any actual endgame content, I will have to do that as well. I may write a review for this expansion when I gather my thoughts, and finish up with it. I don't have this game on Steam, so unfortunately I don't think I can write it there. Not like anyone would read it anyway.

Almost forgot, music. Here is where I do not agree with people who say it was top notch. I thought the tracks themselves were great, for the most part, but the timing was awkward in many areas. Sometimes it was jarring.

[Ammokkx]

I'm just not arguing in bad faith, and I'm sure many others here aren't either.

I don't doubt it. You've said as much before. I also don't doubt you know what you're talking about.

But the OP of this post, who has all but vanished from the thread by this point, most certainly doesn't have the same amount of perspective.

They parroted "115$" even when people refuted it.

They parroted "SE has already condensed the story, your opinion is irrelevant" when people pointed out how everyone and their mother, so including story enthusiasts, complained about post-ARR for years. Not only that, but there was even another argument posed how CT added even more playtime, so it was almost mandatory they'd go back at this point, and this too was ignored.

We had a guy come in and point to specific sections in the story, said they needed to be cut because they were filler, and then admit he didn't care for the story in a vast majority of parts, barely paid attention and even outright skipped cutscenes come Shadowbringers. He posited his argument as knowing what the plot was about while having, infact, a very poor grip on it.

We have had a lot of people say "my friends have quit before getting anywhere because the story's too long" but then we ignore the fact I was a person who spent 65 days of playtime before even starting Shadowbringers and currently am going through the game again with a friend, who's loving every minute of it. We can't take their friends as emblematic of the experience when my friend (Ysera Atoel on Exodus if you're curious) is having a good time with it.

It's these kinds of arguments- not necessarily the one you posit- that people have such an aggressive reaction to. You kinda just got swept up alongside them because you happened to be defending the same side. I'm not really saying that's right, at all, but you also have to recognize people not nearly as well-informed or well-intentioned as you have been posting in here as well.

[SturmChurro]

But the OP of this post, who has all but vanished from the thread by this point, most certainly doesn't have the same amount of perspective.

They parroted "115$" even when people refuted it.

They parroted "SE has already condensed the story, your opinion is irrelevant" when people pointed out how everyone and their mother, so including story enthusiasts, complained about post-ARR for years. Not only that, but there was even another argument posed how CT added even more playtime, so it was almost mandatory they'd go back at this point, and this too was ignored.

We had a guy come in and point to specific sections in the story, said they needed to be cut because they were filler, and then admit he didn't care for the story in a vast majority of parts, barely paid attention and even outright skipped cutscenes come Shadowbringers. He posited his argument as knowing what the plot was about while having, infact, a very poor grip on it.

We have had a lot of people say "my friends have quit before getting anywhere because the story's too long" but then we ignore the fact I was a person who spent 65 days of playtime before even starting Shadowbringers and currently am going through the game again with a friend, who's loving every minute of it. We can't take their friends as emblematic of the experience when my friend (Ysera Atoel on Exodus if you're curious) is having a good time with it.

It's these kinds of arguments- not necessarily the one you posit- that people have such an aggressive reaction to.

I never saw anyone actually refute that. This is literally just what I was talking about.. Are you really sure these people were arguing in bad faith?

I don't know about $115 exactly, but if a player can't get past the story at the very least what they spent on the game is down the drain. If someone wants to play with their friends, have a full kit available, or just simply have most content unlocked. They will have to buy the game for one, a story skip, and a level boost. At full price, this is what that looks like: ("just buy a skip")

If that comes with a sub that is $110, nearly that $115. That is a lot of money..

I'm just not convinced anyone actually refuted that. If a player can't get through the story, really the only other option is to give SE large amounts of money. OR we go back to "game is just not for them". Also, please don't tell me they can skip the level boost. The leveling grind might as well be as bad as the story grind, and this time they would have no story to boost them. It would be dumb for anyone to buy a story skip, but not level boost, in my opinion. There's a reason I still haven't gotten all my combat classes to 80.. it takes a long time..

I don't see what is wrong with that argument either. They are skipping filler, or what they consider filler. Are you just assuming they have a poor grasp on the story? I need examples, otherwise I'm just taking your word. I've been through all the story, and I can tell you right now, there is a lot of filler.

I spent 5 hours this morning making glams, what does your playtime before ShB have to do with anything? My (imaginary) friend also quit the game because of the grind.

I don't see what is wrong with these arguments, frankly.

[Ammokkx]

I never saw anyone actually refute that.

Uh-huh.

I don't see what is wrong with that argument either. They are skipping filler, or what they consider filler. Are you just assuming they have a poor grasp on the story? I need examples, otherwise I'm just taking your word. I've been through all the story, and I can tell you right now, there is a lot of filler.

Read from this point on and you'll see why the person who I was talking about didn't have a clue as to what parts of the story are and are not filler.

If you want someone who actually bothered with the effort of research, here is a much better breakdown.

I spent 5 hours this morning making glams, what does your playtime before ShB have to do with anything? My (imaginary) friend also quit the game because of the grind.

This one is going to take a bit of time to digest.

I'm not bringing up mine or my friend (who is not imaginary, thanks) because we are more of an authority than you are. No, I'm bringing us up because I want to point out how little of an authority people's friends actually make. I have two examples of people who thoroughly enjoyed the story and keep/kept playing for it. My 65 days before ShB was not only spent on story, but also all optional raid content and beast tribes because I wanted to squeeze out every little bit of lore and storytelling this game has/had to offer. Am I extreme in that regard? Perhaps, but it illustrates that people like me exist, and my experiences aren't more or less valid than those who couldn't care either.

I even outlined this in a previous post, where I use similar examples, to explain this very point.

I don't see what is wrong with these arguments, frankly.

All I'm going to say is that just because you are personally blind to the discussion that has already gone on in this thread, doesn't mean that discussion hasn't happened. Just because you may think your own arguments are rock solid, doesn't mean the arguments of others have been as well.

[SturmChurro]

Uh-huh.

Yeah, exactly as I said. I never saw anyone actually refute that point. I'm not being mean either. I just don't think that post refutes anything, when it comes to price. It comes up with ways of supposedly alleviating the sunk cost. Like said in my post, it would be dumb to buy a story skip, and no level boost. You either buy both or none at all, as a new player. $60 is sunk cost if the player cannot get through the story.

Read from this point on and you'll see why the person who I was talking about didn't have a clue as to what parts of the story are and are not filler.
If you want someone who actually bothered with the effort of research, here is a much better breakdown.

And? They may consider it filler, you might not. Doesn't mean their argument is in bad faith. called discussion for a reason.

I did say I didn't care for cuts didn't I?

This one is going to take a bit of time to digest.

I'm not bringing up mine or my friend (who is not imaginary, thanks) because we are more of an authority than you are. No, I'm bringing us up because I want to point out how little of an authority people's friends actually make. I have two examples of people who thoroughly enjoyed the story and keep/kept playing for it. My 65 days before ShB was not only spent on story, but also all optional raid content and beast tribes because I wanted to squeeze out every little bit of lore and storytelling this game has/had to offer. Am I extreme in that regard? Perhaps, but it illustrates that people like me exist, and my experiences aren't more or less valid than those who couldn't care either.

I even outlined this in a previous post, where I use similar examples, to explain this very point.

If anything, you saying you spent so much time before even starting ShB strenghtens MY argument. People may not like the story, but there is plenty of other content for players to find and do! The game could be for them! If only they could just get there!

I was literally referring to myself, and my imaginary friend. Not you.

All I'm going to say is that just because you are personally blind to the discussion that has already gone on in this thread, doesn't mean that discussion hasn't happened. Just because you may think your own arguments are rock solid, doesn't mean the arguments of others have been as well.

Are you stating that I am blind to the discussion that has gone on? Because I can tell you, I'm not. I was aware of those posts. I just didn't consider them to have actually included anything relevant, or as bad faith arguments intent on the destruction of this game for it's players, or whatever ridiculous thing that has been said.

Remember "my opinion"?

[Ammokkx]

If anything, you saying you spent so much time before even starting ShB strenghtens MY argument. People may not like the story, but there is plenty of other content for players to find and do! The game could be for them! If only they could just get there!

Does it? Because I chose to stay behind on story, to not get caught up to endgame, because I wanted to do all this old content first. And it doesn't take very long to get there at all.

Its been like, what, two weeks? And Ysera is like halfway stormblood, keeping in mind she doesn't play every day?

I'm not sure its that much of a hassle getting anywhere in this game, and my personal story doesn't seem to strengthen your argument.

It didn't take me 65 days because it requires 65 days to get to ShB.

It took me 65 days because the MSQ wasn't even an issue as I had so much stuff to do on the side that I didn't even have the time to continue the main story.

But yes, tell me more about how the MSQ is too long and gates people. I'd love to hear about how the week it takes to get to Alexander raids, if you even care to do it, while watching the cutscenes, is such a massive slog.

[SturmChurro]

Does it? Because I chose to stay behind on story, to not get caught up to endgame, because I wanted to do all this old content first. And it doesn't take very long to get there at all.

Its been like, what, two weeks? And Ysera is like halfway stormblood, keeping in mind she doesn't play every day?

I'm not sure its that much of a hassle getting anywhere in this game, and my personal story doesn't seem to strengthen your argument.

It didn't take me 65 days because it requires 65 days to get to ShB.

It took me 65 days because the MSQ wasn't even an issue as I had so much stuff to do on the side that I didn't even have the time to continue the main story.

But yes, tell me more about how the MSQ is too long and gates people. I'd love to hear about how the week it takes to get to Alexander raids, if you even care to do it, while watching the cutscenes, is such a massive slog.

Exactly! You found stuff you like! Maybe others who don't like the MSQ can find other stuff at endgame, with their full kit, they like! Everyone wins! They can find 65 days of fun, without that story! Yes, that content could be in Shadowbringers!

Not worth wasting more posts today. I'm done here for now.

Not gonna waste another post, like I said, but I will add, now looking below: I tend to post things in general. This wasn't an argument, it was a statement. Though it may sound sarcastic, I was serious. I think people can find a lot of fun despite the story, and story skips are a bandaid.

[Ammokkx]

Exactly! You found stuff you like! Maybe others who don't like the MSQ can find other stuff at endgame, with their full kit, they like! Everyone wins! They can find 65 days of fun, without that story! Yes, that content could be in Shadowbringers!

Ahem.

Skips pretty much are the only compromise, to my mind. I agree with the "one free skip" for a new account idea, for what it's worth.

Perhaps, but it illustrates that people like me exist, and my experiences aren't more or less valid than those who couldn't care either.

Also, I don't think skipping the story is an invalid way to play. Not everyone's going to care and that's alright. Thing is, while I don't force my "you should watch the story" viewpoint on you by making cutscenes mandatory or something to that effect, neither should you be forcing the "who cares about the story" viewpoint by trying to hamstring the experience for others

I still don't see why you can't do any of what you're suggesting here on your main with the friend. My synced comment was more in reference to how you seemed to want to be on an equal playing field with someone you reccommend the game to, but again, they would be having to go through the MSQ anyway and doing it at the same time keeps you on-pace. In fact, I'd argue you'd be helping them "get to semi relevant content" a lot faster by just using your main than you would by starting up an alt for some reason.

I'm playing through with a newbie friend right now and I don't have any problems syncing down my level 80 DRK to help them out with duties and FATEs. You don't need an alt to do content with a friend, and if you did want to do content at the same time, I'm not sure why you'd want to skip the MSQ...? The MSQ would be what keeps you at equal levels.

But yeah, I guess my viewpoint isn't consistent with that exact mentality you're having.

Not only have I said, not one page ago, that I wouldn't mind a fresh account having the option to have their first character to skip straight to Shadowbringers (in case of the very person you're describing) but also I don't think cutscene-skipping the MSQ is that much of a problem. My FC leader, Inara Yuki, has watched exactly two sets of cutscenes:

Castrum and Praetorium.

I have a literal story skipper as the leader of my FC and you don't see me opposing her, yeah?

There are plenty of options in the game already for people who want to join others at endgame. I'd even help you advocate for adding another one specifically for the type of person who couldn't care to do anything else. Do not sit here and tell me I don't get your point, Sturmchurro. You seem to be the one here shutting out other viewpoints, not the other way around.

[Taikugemu]

Patch MSQ is a problem.

When you are at the end, patched MSQ is really welcome and enjoyable.

When you are behind and blasting through the expansions, patch MSQ is an inconvenience and makes it a slog.

They need to provide content that people at the endgame can enjoy, while being skippable or something to come back to for people who just want to progress.

Not saying they shouldn’t have MSQ but a lot of the patch stuff is filler. 5.4 for example, besides the closing scenes you aren’t missing much of the overall story if you don’t do it. There’s no reason the limsa stuff couldn’t have been additional sidequest content as at least currently it appears only to add extra context to things rather than be a crucial addition to the story.

5.4 was filler? Finding the cure for tempering and trying solving Eorzea's major problem by coming together with the beast tribes was filler?

Are we playing the same game?