MSQ Needs Further Condensing

[Ammokkx]

I can't address them as I'd like. I'll get banned for slander. I can't even explain with details what I mean, otherwise I'll get banned for slander. I have to put "my opinion", "to me", etc. I can't just talk like a regular person, because I'll get banned for slander. Sorry, just a small vent, I had to backspace what I was gonna post. Same I did with that reply.

I THINK, to me, maybe, there are a lot of strawmen arguments* in this thread. Just my opinion though. That's it.

I don't have the energy to word my way around what I want to say right now. I just want to post about glam. If someone makes a huge reply it'll take me a good.. half a day to edit a post properly.

I'm not really defending either side here (even though I've made it clear what stance I take on the grander matter) but you also have to realise that you're not the only person arguing your side of it. The fact of the matter is, these strawmen have appeared in this thread, they're just not you specifically.

A lot of people are arguing the cut to MSQ in bad faith and wanting to make this into a game it isn't.

I'm still of the opinion the only cuts you can make in the MSQ are minor at best and require some workarounds (like the vesper bay tickets) because the plot is pretty tightly packed with arcs you can't really cut out (or, in CT's case, had to be added to the main plot after the fact).

Skips pretty much are the only compromise, to my mind. I agree with the "one free skip" for a new account idea, for what it's worth.

[SturmChurro]

I'm not really defending either side here (even though I've made it clear what stance I take on the grander matter) but you also have to realise that you're not the only person arguing your side of it. The fact of the matter is, these strawmen have appeared in this thread, they're just not you specifically.

A lot of people are arguing the cut to MSQ in bad faith and wanting to make this into a game it isn't.

I'm still of the opinion the only cuts you can make in the MSQ are minor at best and require some workarounds (like the vesper bay tickets) because the plot is pretty tightly packed with arcs you can't really cut out (or, in CT's case, had to be added to the main plot after the fact).

Skips pretty much are the only compromise, to my mind. I agree with the "one free skip" for a new account idea, for what it's worth.

It's just throughout this thread, words seem to be being put into people's mouths (referring to many cases), opinions are assumed.. Like I said in that post, I can't explain it otherwise I will get banned for slander. If there is any kind of accusatory remark, the mods here will ban you. It is VERY difficult to have a proper conversation here. No, I'm not even being paranoid, I've been banned for slander before. I'm just so sick and tired of strawmen arguments, and it probably stems from me still being annoyed at how I was treated in my own thread. Yeah, I am antagonistic sometimes, I need to work on that, however there is a reason for it. I guarantee you I am getting reported constantly, I KNOW one slip up in my wording will result in another ban. I wish people (in general) could have good faith arguments, without assuming one side wants to destroy the game or something.. Actual discourse. Yeah, again, I've been hyperbolic, but that's in response to other posts. I do take it out on people who are having good faith arguments, I'm definitely not perfect.

I am looking for solutions, so that more people can come and enjoy the game, and perhaps SE will decide then this game is worth pouring more resources and time into, and we all can get what we want. No, I do not want to destroy the game, in my view a streamlined new player experience would help the game, and many here think the same way. Why would I, or people here suggest to cut the MSQ in bad faith? I can completely see the argument for optional MSQ, if people want to do the story in order, they should be suggested, by the game to do just that, if they don't they won't want to do it whether they are forced or not.

I'm not necessarily for cuts, I think the content should still be available, rather than removed.

Skips sure, but then you get people arguing about that as well. Also, a skip is a skip, I think people should be able to go back and do story if they want to. I suppose there is new game plus now. Never tried it, I don't know how good it is or isn't.

[Ammokkx]

If there is any kind of accusatory remark, the mods here will ban you. It is VERY difficult to have a proper conversation here.

Can't say that's been my experience so far.

With the way people talk around these forums, I'm shocked my post history hasn't been the grounds for a perma-ban yet.

[SturmChurro]

Can't say that's been my experience so far.

With the way people talk around these forums, I'm shocked my post history hasn't been the grounds for a perma-ban yet.

That's why I am 99% sure I'm getting reported constantly. Maybe you can guess why I can be so antagonistic sometimes.. It's not even just me who has been banned for slander, I know, not know of, I KNOW (seen their email) I am not a unique case at all. Others here have also been banned for slander, for what probably you, and definitely not I would consider "slander", at all.. I know someone who recently was banned for "slander", literally just a few weeks ago.

I'm being completely serious here. The mods can ban you for nearly anything if they want to. Not that this has anything to do with this thread, but God. I don't know maybe I just got needlessly paranoid, but the way tensions are in this thread, I feel like there are people here right now constantly reporting. This is why I don't chat in-game either. And speaking of that I HATE how people just assume that just means I want to be a jerk or something. I am actually very nice in reality, forum persona or discord chat besides the point. I give people the benefit of the doubt more often than I should. I can barely even say no, so on the occasion I do do group content I get roped into doing things for hours that I actually don't want to do. Like in borzja recently, apparently I am now a go to for running parties, I don't even want to.. No that any of this has to do with the thread, so I digress..

I'm just not arguing in bad faith, and I'm sure many others here aren't either. I think instead of cuts maybe, they could streamline it. As in, structure quests differently, so there is a mainline story, and other "main", but optional stories too. Maybe, and I am just freestyling this idea, they could encourage people to do the whole story, exp, etc. but not make it all mandatory. No cuts, always there. Maybe the structure and storytelling don't support this idea, but it's just an idea. There is no want from me to destroy it, I like the story, quite a bit. I've joked over discord that if people here only knew how much I actually liked the story, I'd be called out so fast..

Here's an old post of mine, something that might actually surprise people. For context:

I thought the Shadowbringers story was fantastic, I was enthralled from day 1. Completely invested. I read every line of dialogue, talked to the npcs before turning in/accepting/inbetween a quest (just talk - not a quest requirement). Some cliches are fine, and can make a story fun at times. The writing was overall top tier, it was great. I love that we had our old cast of characters from ARR throughout - Urianger getting the screen time he desperately deserved. This story had everything you could want in a good story, and Yoshida was not kidding when he said it was equivalent to a full single player rpg experience, it is. I took my time, and I am glad I did.

I particularly like Zenos as a character, and I am very happy to see him returning. Ardbert was a great addition, and I loved our interactions.

The areas were interesting, and nostalgic, the story dungeons are probably the best we have had, overall carried by their boss mechanics and design (aside from the first one which was a bit dull - bosses, again, made up for it).

My jaw literally dropped when I discovered the recreation of the Ascian city. It was amazing.

I have not played anything but a dancer, and I quite like it. I will have to level up my other major classes and roles before I can give an opinion on that. Nor have I completed any actual endgame content, I will have to do that as well. I may write a review for this expansion when I gather my thoughts, and finish up with it. I don't have this game on Steam, so unfortunately I don't think I can write it there. Not like anyone would read it anyway.

Almost forgot, music. Here is where I do not agree with people who say it was top notch. I thought the tracks themselves were great, for the most part, but the timing was awkward in many areas. Sometimes it was jarring.

[Ammokkx]

I'm just not arguing in bad faith, and I'm sure many others here aren't either.

I don't doubt it. You've said as much before. I also don't doubt you know what you're talking about.

But the OP of this post, who has all but vanished from the thread by this point, most certainly doesn't have the same amount of perspective.

They parroted "115$" even when people refuted it.

They parroted "SE has already condensed the story, your opinion is irrelevant" when people pointed out how everyone and their mother, so including story enthusiasts, complained about post-ARR for years. Not only that, but there was even another argument posed how CT added even more playtime, so it was almost mandatory they'd go back at this point, and this too was ignored.

We had a guy come in and point to specific sections in the story, said they needed to be cut because they were filler, and then admit he didn't care for the story in a vast majority of parts, barely paid attention and even outright skipped cutscenes come Shadowbringers. He posited his argument as knowing what the plot was about while having, infact, a very poor grip on it.

We have had a lot of people say "my friends have quit before getting anywhere because the story's too long" but then we ignore the fact I was a person who spent 65 days of playtime before even starting Shadowbringers and currently am going through the game again with a friend, who's loving every minute of it. We can't take their friends as emblematic of the experience when my friend (Ysera Atoel on Exodus if you're curious) is having a good time with it.

It's these kinds of arguments- not necessarily the one you posit- that people have such an aggressive reaction to. You kinda just got swept up alongside them because you happened to be defending the same side. I'm not really saying that's right, at all, but you also have to recognize people not nearly as well-informed or well-intentioned as you have been posting in here as well.

[SturmChurro]

But the OP of this post, who has all but vanished from the thread by this point, most certainly doesn't have the same amount of perspective.

They parroted "115$" even when people refuted it.

They parroted "SE has already condensed the story, your opinion is irrelevant" when people pointed out how everyone and their mother, so including story enthusiasts, complained about post-ARR for years. Not only that, but there was even another argument posed how CT added even more playtime, so it was almost mandatory they'd go back at this point, and this too was ignored.

We had a guy come in and point to specific sections in the story, said they needed to be cut because they were filler, and then admit he didn't care for the story in a vast majority of parts, barely paid attention and even outright skipped cutscenes come Shadowbringers. He posited his argument as knowing what the plot was about while having, infact, a very poor grip on it.

We have had a lot of people say "my friends have quit before getting anywhere because the story's too long" but then we ignore the fact I was a person who spent 65 days of playtime before even starting Shadowbringers and currently am going through the game again with a friend, who's loving every minute of it. We can't take their friends as emblematic of the experience when my friend (Ysera Atoel on Exodus if you're curious) is having a good time with it.

It's these kinds of arguments- not necessarily the one you posit- that people have such an aggressive reaction to.

I never saw anyone actually refute that. This is literally just what I was talking about.. Are you really sure these people were arguing in bad faith?

I don't know about $115 exactly, but if a player can't get past the story at the very least what they spent on the game is down the drain. If someone wants to play with their friends, have a full kit available, or just simply have most content unlocked. They will have to buy the game for one, a story skip, and a level boost. At full price, this is what that looks like: ("just buy a skip")

If that comes with a sub that is $110, nearly that $115. That is a lot of money..

I'm just not convinced anyone actually refuted that. If a player can't get through the story, really the only other option is to give SE large amounts of money. OR we go back to "game is just not for them". Also, please don't tell me they can skip the level boost. The leveling grind might as well be as bad as the story grind, and this time they would have no story to boost them. It would be dumb for anyone to buy a story skip, but not level boost, in my opinion. There's a reason I still haven't gotten all my combat classes to 80.. it takes a long time..

I don't see what is wrong with that argument either. They are skipping filler, or what they consider filler. Are you just assuming they have a poor grasp on the story? I need examples, otherwise I'm just taking your word. I've been through all the story, and I can tell you right now, there is a lot of filler.

I spent 5 hours this morning making glams, what does your playtime before ShB have to do with anything? My (imaginary) friend also quit the game because of the grind.

I don't see what is wrong with these arguments, frankly.

[Ammokkx]

I never saw anyone actually refute that.

Uh-huh.

I don't see what is wrong with that argument either. They are skipping filler, or what they consider filler. Are you just assuming they have a poor grasp on the story? I need examples, otherwise I'm just taking your word. I've been through all the story, and I can tell you right now, there is a lot of filler.

Read from this point on and you'll see why the person who I was talking about didn't have a clue as to what parts of the story are and are not filler.

If you want someone who actually bothered with the effort of research, here is a much better breakdown.

I spent 5 hours this morning making glams, what does your playtime before ShB have to do with anything? My (imaginary) friend also quit the game because of the grind.

This one is going to take a bit of time to digest.

I'm not bringing up mine or my friend (who is not imaginary, thanks) because we are more of an authority than you are. No, I'm bringing us up because I want to point out how little of an authority people's friends actually make. I have two examples of people who thoroughly enjoyed the story and keep/kept playing for it. My 65 days before ShB was not only spent on story, but also all optional raid content and beast tribes because I wanted to squeeze out every little bit of lore and storytelling this game has/had to offer. Am I extreme in that regard? Perhaps, but it illustrates that people like me exist, and my experiences aren't more or less valid than those who couldn't care either.

I even outlined this in a previous post, where I use similar examples, to explain this very point.

I don't see what is wrong with these arguments, frankly.

All I'm going to say is that just because you are personally blind to the discussion that has already gone on in this thread, doesn't mean that discussion hasn't happened. Just because you may think your own arguments are rock solid, doesn't mean the arguments of others have been as well.

[Reyketi]

I was a person who spent 65 days of playtime

99.9% of gamers are not going to want to do that.

Best Wishes

-Reyketi