Developers : Healer design mentality needs to change

[Rilifane]

Well, I do think the majority of the player base is the target for role and job designs usually. And thanks for the screenshot.

Your experience is with current damage distribution. That's why I said to also increase damage dealt by DPS and tank. If there are times in between heals, that's a filler in the fight that can be shortened by more damage (or less enemy HP I suppose). That said, some of the pacing has to do with allowing people time to think of mechanics, so downtime would still be there.

Even if tanks and dps dealt 10x as much dps as a healer does and a fight is 2min instead of 10min, you would still have a significant amount of downtime as a healer. Because it doesn't change the fact that GCD heal is rarely required, not even with a party that doesn't mitigate. Unless you reasoning is "Well, if a fight is only 2min long and a healer spends one GCD on healing, they obviously spent more time of the fight healing than compared to one GCD in a 10min fight" - which is true but doesn't adress the core problem at all. Because significant amount downtime is still just that: significant amount of downtime that gets filled by spamming one button.
The insanely powerful heals relative to the low incoming damage is what causes most of the problems coupled with very little to fill the downtime caused by the strong heals, not how much dps a tank or dps deals.

[linayar]

it can remain simple because it was simple before.

The devs apparently disagree or they wouldn't have changed it.

And when you think about it, why would having more buttons break the monotony if they're all independent buttons with no combo relationship? In the end, it'll still be spamming the same buttons, even if there are more of what you spam. So I think the reason why you feel less buttons to spam is suddenly monotonous is what makes it not so simple for others to have more buttons, and why the devs decide to simplify it. Maybe they've gone too far, so we'll see next expansion if they think so as well or if they do want this.

Even if tanks and dps dealt 10x as much dps as a healer does and a fight is 2min instead of 10min, you would still have a significant amount of downtime as a healer. Because it doesn't change the fact that GCD heal is rarely required, not even with a party that doesn't mitigate. Unless you reasoning is "Well, if a fight is only 2min long and a healer spends one GCD on healing, they obviously spent more time of the fight healing than compared to one GCD in a 10min fight" - which is true but doesn't adress the core problem at all. Because significant amount downtime is still just that: significant amount of downtime that gets filled by spamming one button.
The insanely powerful heals relative to the low incoming damage is what causes most of the problems coupled with very little to fill the downtime caused by the strong heals, not how much dps a tank or dps deals.

Yeah, but a reduction in downtime is still a reduction in downtime. And I don't think they plan on reducing heals or increasing need for healing as that would qualitatively be worse for parties unless everyone is on top of their game.

[ItMe]

And when you think about it, why would having more buttons break the monotony if they're all independent buttons with no combo relationship? In the end, it'll still be spamming the same buttons, even if there are more of what you spam. So I think the reason why you feel less buttons to spam is suddenly monotonous is what makes it not so simple for others to have more buttons, and why the devs decide to simplify it. Maybe they've gone too far, so we'll see next expansion if they think so as well or if they do want this.

That's an interesting way of thinking about it...
And I think you're right.
Additional isolated attack buttons would make things busier, but if that's all people wanted more would have moved to AST instead of dropped healing.

[Rilifane]

The devs apparently disagree or they wouldn't have changed it.

And when you think about it, why would having more buttons break the monotony if they're all independent buttons with no combo relationship? In the end, it'll still be spamming the same buttons, even if there are more of what you spam. So I think the reason why you feel less buttons to spam is suddenly monotonous is what makes it not so simple for others to have more buttons, and why the devs decide to simplify it. Maybe they've gone too far, so we'll see next expansion if they think so as well or if they do want this.

Yeah, but a reduction in downtime is still a reduction in downtime. And I don't think they plan on reducing heals or increasing need for healing as that would qualitatively be worse for parties unless everyone is on top of their game.

But it's still the worst way of "reducing" downtime.
The fights are shorter, so we only press one button over and over for, say, 8min instead of 10min. Doesn't adress the core problem at all.
I think at this point everyone knows that SE won't increase the required healing in fights because they want to keep the skill floor low to make healing accessible. Kinda agreed. While higher healing requirement does work in other games, they have introduced it early on and everyone learned to handle it from the start.
For FFXIV, it's definitely too late. healing has never been an (almost) full-time job and you spent less and less time healing with each expansion and patch.

But making dps more "optional" by increasing tank/ dps output will not change the fact that healers have an insane amount of downtime and want to fill said downtime. SCHs Dissipation is a de facto 30 potency gain over not using it. They're still using it. Because it gives something to do and it's more useful than not using it.
At this point, the only real way to make healer gameplay more interesting is finding more interesting ways to fill the downtime, not gut healer dps even more by not only keeping it as boring as it is now but making it incredibly insatisfying by making it less impactful aswell.
Keep the skill floor low while raising the skill ceiling.

[linayar]

But it's still the worst way of "reducing" downtime.

I said simple, not best. And do remember that I also don't think that's what they're trying to do in the first place.

[Rilifane]

I said simple, not best. And do remember that I also don't think that's what they're trying to do in the first place.

It's a simple way of making even more healers quit because it doesn't reduce the downtime healers feel, even if one GCD on healing over 5min is objectively more time spent healing than over 10min. But it does make healer gameplay feel even more unsatisyfing and we're already at an all-time low.

I think another problem is the amount of healing buttons we have vs. those we strictly need and use.
Right now every healer as several buttons that do basically the same, +/- a bit of potency yet they all take up a different hotkey. Ironically, the bare-bone WhM is the most balanced one in that regard. But in general healer hotbars are bloated with a myriad of buttons on a 30/60/90/120s CD which heal for roughly the same and function roughly the same.
As long as we still have so many more or less identical buttons we don't have room for more interesting ways to fill downtime.
Healers need a solid GCD heal base kit so every healer can heal every regular content without restrictions from cooldowns to keep the skill floor low. This can take up as little as 4-5 buttons (ST burst, ST hot/ shield, aoe burst, aoe with hot/ shield) as it is now.
Reducing the amount of oGCD heals while adding more dps buttons that also offer some sort of synergy or return would definitely be a more complicated solution but one that wouldn't affect the skill floor SE is so worried about. Even things like having two dots with different and "odd" lengths (e.g. 25s and 18s) adds a layer of complexity because it's a constantly changing rhythm compared to the fixed 30s every healer has. Or things like adding charges to Assize to give it an additional use instead of "press on CD for deeps".

[Raikai]

That's one thing that WoW gets an upper hand compared to XIV, in that healing is more fun there... Maybe harder to balance at that. But I've been thinking, the only way to truly change the premises of the healing structure in this game is actually changing the encounter design a little bit, with a bit less elements of predictability and adjusting things accordingly.

If I'd say something to improve the current design, would probably be more interesting support systems for all healers and bringing back the level of dps complexity they had prior to Stormblood.

[Saefinn]

The devs apparently disagree or they wouldn't have changed it.

And when you think about it, why would having more buttons break the monotony if they're all independent buttons with no combo relationship? In the end, it'll still be spamming the same buttons, even if there are more of what you spam. So I think the reason why you feel less buttons to spam is suddenly monotonous is what makes it not so simple for others to have more buttons, and why the devs decide to simplify it. Maybe they've gone too far, so we'll see next expansion if they think so as well or if they do want this.

MNK's design, their attempt at making BRD a bow Mage, their attempts at trying to make Limited Jobs work, their two failed Diadem attempts, Eureka Anemos and Pagos and more tells me that the devs aren't always right and don't always get it right. Not only that, the examples I listed the devs have accepted they were wrong and listened to user feedback on it, like we are giving now. And in fairness, it happens. And I can speak as a developer, but for a different industry and well, we even get it wrong, we get feedback and make changes and we're not dealing with anything as complex with as many varied use cases as an MMO.

It's obvious the Devs don't agree, that's a moot point, we're highlighting a perceived issue and providing feedback on how those issues can be resolved and revert some of their decisions which are consider by many as bad decisions. And as we know they get feedback from the forums, they have been known to correct bad decisions or find other ways to solve problems. So yes, we'll raise points like this.


And yes I recognise not everybody finds it monotonous or as a problem. This goes right back to a previous point of mine. They could have introduced a 4th healer (and still can) with a stripped back DPS kit. It means those who liked WHM/SCH/AST with their design philosophies they had could have continued to enjoy their roles whilst those who fancied something with less of a DPS kit could have gone for the 4th healer.

The beauty of having multiple jobs for each role is that you can appeal to different people's preferred playstyles.

As for the monotony, having more abilities to use in your down time, even if you spam them is more interesting than one or two buttons being spammed.

I don't need to think about it like it's a hypothetical answer, because I've lived it and know what the difference feels like. The healer requirement was already low in Stormblood but never complained because I had the consolation there was something to break up the down time. Albeit there were still some problems.

[linayar]

It's a simple way of making even more healers quit because it doesn't reduce the downtime healers feel, even if one GCD on healing over 5min is objectively more time spent healing than over 10min. But it does make healer gameplay feel even more unsatisyfing and we're already at an all-time low.

How would it be worse if the gameplay doesn't change and the fight goes faster? 5 minutes is a like a third or a fourth of like an Ultimate fight, or so I've heard. That's not insignificant in terms of a boss fight.

the devs aren't always right and don't always get it right.

Obviously, it's not my point that they're always right or that you can't give feedback to make them reverse a decision.

My point is simply that I don't think you've dealt with the reason why they changed it in the first place.

The beauty of having multiple jobs for each role is that you can appeal to different people's preferred playstyles.

Perhaps, although certain considerations have to be made for the role as a whole as well.

I don't need to think about it like it's a hypothetical answer, because I've lived it and know what the difference feels like.

And that diffference existing is why one is not as simple as the other and that, I think, has to do with why there was a change toward reduction.

[Lilseph]

Dare I say the best change the could have made to avoid The Balance fishing would have been to remove Redraw or reduce its uses. Make players try to use their cards meaningfully instead of trying to fish for one to give the biggest numbers. And in its evolution, think about ways you can have AST taken advantage of whatever card is drawn. For me that'd have been a good progression for AST instead of "all your cards now have the same effect".

The key word here is 'consistency'. It was probably difficult for the encounter designers to have to constantly balance fights around card RNG. It would lead to clearing the encounter being a matter of Drawing the "correct" amount of rDPS cards which is completely out of the player's control. Having DPS checks dictated by how lucky your AST is with cards sounds like a terrible idea. The new system is much better in that regard because they can more accurately predict how much rDPS the AST will bring and adjust the numbers accordingly. Not to mention how aggravating it would feel to pull absolutely nothing but utility cards in a 10 minute encounter or 30 minute dungeon.

They would have to either turn every card into a utility card which would make the Card system kinda too situational to properly use, or turn every card into a damage buffing card (which we actually got in Shadowbringers). Personally I'd prefer what we have now than the mess of Stormblood WHM being shoved to the wayside.