Job Change Suggestions for SMN

[HeulGDarian]

Here we go again

[Exodus-E]

Here we go again

I know, right?

Yet another person who wants to eliminate Egis (completely phasing them out in favor of Demis), all while ignoring the story/lore/artwork/etc. that was created and tied around them since 2013~2014.
Not to mention one that's oblivious to the fact that each Final Fantasy game handles its elements differently.

Look, we get it.
SMN may have some conceptual/mechanical problems as of this particular expansion.
But that doesn't mean that Egis are the main culprit, nor that they can't keep adjusting them at all (Patch 5.1 proved that).

Also, I think the worst part of those suggestions is that these would lock us out of any other "potential" new Egi/Trance/Demi/etc. such as Bismarck, Ravana, or even Shinryu.

[Zaiyah]

I know, right?

Yet another person who wants to eliminate Egis (completely phasing them out in favor of Demis), all while ignoring the story/lore/artwork/etc. that was created and tied around them since 2013~2014.
Not to mention one that's oblivious to the fact that each Final Fantasy game handles its elements differently.

Look, we get it.
SMN may have some conceptual/mechanical problems as of this particular expansion.
But that doesn't mean that Egis are the main culprit, nor that they can't keep adjusting them at all (Patch 5.1 proved that).

Also, I think the worst part of those suggestions is that these would lock us out of any other "potential" new Egi/Trance/Demi/etc. such as Bismarck, Ravana, or even Shinryu.

Actually no I like the pet idea and managing them. This was a suggestion keeping in mind that Yoshi's team hates the egi at this point. Evidenced by all but phasing them out into back ground pets that only serve the purpose to signify what "stance" you are in while providing a dot in the form of AA (single/aoe/shield). If they aren't going to make smn about the summons and add more egis or glamours or center the gameplay around them then just scrap them and make amazing animations for set skills instead. Yes there is lore but a retcon is not unheard of or would even be THAT much to do. My prefered style would be to scrap most spells cast by the smn and make them cast by the egi you have summoned but that isn't how yoshi wants it.

[Exodus-E]

This was a suggestion keeping in mind that Yoshi's team hates the egi at this point. Evidenced by all but phasing them out into back ground pets that only serve the purpose to signify what "stance" you are in while providing a dot in the form of AA (single/aoe/shield). If they aren't going to make smn about the summons and add more egis or glamours or center the gameplay around them then just scrap them and make amazing animations for set skills instead.

For the record, the latest mention of them acknowledging/working on them was back in May 14th 2020 in the 12th LL Revival, shown here (in the live chat):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQbr0xgafk0 (at 34:04)

Personally, I doubt that they actively hate them, it's just that they have a lot of other stuff to take care of (unfortunately).

Yes there is lore but a retcon is not unheard of or would even be THAT much to do. My prefered style would be to scrap most spells cast by the smn and make them cast by the egi you have summoned but that isn't how yoshi wants it.

Not on this magnitude, especially since it was pretty much solidified in outside sources (see: official artworks/renderings, encyclopedias, a "Tales from the Storm" entry, etc.).

It'd be like removing the faeries from SCH (and/or changing their roles).
It's far too late at this point.

EDIT:
On a related note, here's my (usual) message for the community team and/or the development team:

If you're reading this, PLEASE make an official statement on the (current) status of Egi glamours.
Even implementing a dedicated/exclusive UI window to manage them (akin to BLU's spell book) would go a long way.
Thank you for your time.

[Dyvid]

Actually no I like the pet idea and managing them. This was a suggestion keeping in mind that Yoshi's team hates the egi at this point. Evidenced by all but phasing them out into back ground pets that only serve the purpose to signify what "stance" you are in while providing a dot in the form of AA (single/aoe/shield). If they aren't going to make smn about the summons and add more egis or glamours or center the gameplay around them then just scrap them and make amazing animations for set skills instead. Yes there is lore but a retcon is not unheard of or would even be THAT much to do. My prefered style would be to scrap most spells cast by the smn and make them cast by the egi you have summoned but that isn't how yoshi wants it.

You evidence is suspect at best. To be clear, I suggested in 2014 to give Egi a "stance" based on how the game was designed (A pet designed for trash mobs and one for boss fights). Further more Egi damage is a lot better now than it was then. Egi control is better now than it was then. In fact, Summoner is more about summons now than it was then, anyone remember "Ruin Mage?" The biggest community issue that needs to be address is Egi cosmetic design.

[Rika007]

I know, right?

Yet another person who wants to eliminate Egis (completely phasing them out in favor of Demis), all while ignoring the story/lore/artwork/etc. that was created and tied around them since 2013~2014.
Not to mention one that's oblivious to the fact that each Final Fantasy game handles its elements differently.

There are ways to remove the Egi's from the jobs overall primary play style without completely destroying or retconning the jobs lore. An easy idea that's been tossed around by many people is to make the egi's into baby Demi's earlier on in the leveling process. Change their mechanics around so they behave more like Demi's with a 20 second timer and have enkindle work similar to Akh Morn and Revelation (or you could make them like the MCH Queen Automaton as a fire and forget type thing as they should be more basic). You get all your egi's at the same time as you level up and then as you go on further into the leveling process each egi get's replaced by a Demi primal trance (assuming Summoner continues to add Demi primals down the line, which seems like the route it's gonna go as the Demi's are the part of the job most are excited for).

This would not just solve the problem of how to fix the Egi's while also not outright removing them for lore reasons, but also fixes one of Summoner's other biggest problems, the leveling experience and how it feels like 4 different jobs entirely from levels 1-57, 58-69, 70-71, and 72-80. The job desperately needs a fix to it's lower level experience (several jobs do as well), and making it so players are getting used to the primary ability loop early on would help to fix that.

Other things would have to change of course. Ruin 4 will need to find another way to be proc'ed outside of Egi Assaults granting further ruin, on top of Summoner losing a LOT of it's mobility will have to be dealt with. However with the egi mechanics removed from the end game level environment that allows them to flesh out the Demi's more. Working on un-teathering Bahamut and Phoenix from the Summoner so they just stay still and do their thing would help with this, as would merging Dreadwyrm Trance to Bahamut's summoning like Phoenix so that it still has a lot more available free casts during the opener to juggle all it's OGCD's. The point is all this would be very easy to work around. They also will need to shorten the rotation between trances if they plan on adding a third Demi. As a 3 minute long loop just puts us back into the same death punishment territory that Summoner was in during Stormblood.

Look, we get it.
SMN may have some conceptual/mechanical problems as of this particular expansion.
But that doesn't mean that Egis are the main culprit, nor that they can't keep adjusting them at all (Patch 5.1 proved that).

I don't think it's a may at this point, and it isn't just this expansion. Even at it's peak popularity in Heavensward and Stormblood, people had issues with egi management. And sure while there have been plenty of complaints about other things like Demi ghosting and movement issues, dot mage not feeling like a summoner, boring aetherflow management have all popped up here and there over time, the one consistent thorn in the side of Summoner has been since day one managing the egi's. They have always been the number one complaint about summoners design, thats why they have changed so drastically each expansion. I get it, the egi's are cool and the carbuncles are cute. They can still hang around in some way or another, there is nothing stopping them from being a glamour of some kind that summoners can pull out on the side even with my idea of them becoming 'baby Demi's' early on.

And let's face it, it's not like SE isn't ready to make change because a job's lore is in the way. They ripped Bard's support kit to absolute shreds over the years all in the name and sake of Balance, not that I agree with that decision mind you, but I'm just saying that if the dev team begins to agree with the player base that Egi's are the primary problem, don't be surprised when they find a way to get rid of them. That lore protection will only last so far.

Also, I think the worst part of those suggestions is that these would lock us out of any other "potential" new Egi/Trance/Demi/etc. such as Bismarck, Ravana, or even Shinryu.

Not really. Any change to the Egi system or removal of it basically guarantee's a rework in how the job will function at it's core. They know the Demi's are the star of the show now and taking the time for that significant of a change gives a chance to rework the rotation to fit in new ways to bring in new trance's and Demi's down the line. It doesn't in anyway 'lock them out' from it.

[Exodus-E]

And let's face it, it's not like SE isn't ready to make change because a job's lore is in the way. They ripped Bard's support kit to absolute shreds over the years all in the name and sake of Balance, not that I agree with that decision mind you, but I'm just saying that if the dev team begins to agree with the player base that Egi's are the primary problem, don't be surprised when they find a way to get rid of them. That lore protection will only last so far.

And yet, said changes didn't conflict with its own established lore.
BRD is still a master archer that uses "magical music" to inspire/fortify itself and its allies.

Hell, it even kept the same songs it had since ARR (minus Foe's Requiem), just altered so they work in a different manner while still benefiting both, itself and the rest of the party.

So yeah, the lore protection "excuse" can still last so much.

Not really. Any change to the Egi system or removal of it basically guarantee's a rework in how the job will function at it's core. They know the Demi's are the star of the show now and taking the time for that significant of a change gives a chance to rework the rotation to fit in new ways to bring in new trance's and Demi's down the line. It doesn't in anyway 'lock them out' from it.

I meant "lock them out" from a cosmetic perspective, which the Egi glamour system was meant to fix (if they kept working on it, that is).

Fundamentally speaking, we're already set in terms of roles and functions for summons.

All we're missing is variety, even if it's just cosmetic.
Which is why I take issue with some of these "suggestions" that don't take into account every Primal released thus far (or will be released in the future).