Job Change Suggestions for SMN

[Zaiyah]

I know it has been said plenty of times over but smn in 14 doesn't feel like smn outside of demi phases.

I just wanted to share an idea I had if they seriously wanted to address this issue.

Smn currently feels like a bunch of conflicting ideas trying to work together. This is clearly due to how it was introduced tied to sch which has actively restricted how the job grows as archanist based skills inhibit how the job could be played.

The fact that this is acknowledged by yoshi in the way he will never release a dual job class again makes it disappointing that these two jobs haven't been fully separated yet.

For starters smn would need to be rereleased as a new job. Starting at a lv 50-60 point.

This would erase all of the archanist skills from the bar and allow smn to be smn.

So my idea for smn would be an aoe specialist of burst/buff/debuff-dot.

All smn spells would be aoe whether the focus is self target is or target a monster/ally

Smn skills:

I really liked how SE and yoshi has done pheonix and how it feels. So I wanted to run with this idea. Smn opener would start with a demi phase (which one depends on what level). The part that would be new is that carbuncle would now be considered a demi phase for smn. Also pheonix would no longer be a demi phase. Also OGCDs would be greatly reduced outside of role skills. Non demi skills outside of OGDC would not be available during demi phases

Carbuncle: OGCD Duration - 10 sec Summons carbuncle which allows the player to use 3 gcd spells only usable while carbuncle is up. Extends negative debuffs/dots by 10 sec cast by the smn. Upon ending grants 2 uses of "summoners favor" - think aether flow. This spell turns into bahamut upon use (lv 50).

Summoners Favor: "Passive" Allows instant cast of gcd smn spell and adds a debuff specific to the spell cast. Once all allowable uses are used unlocks next demi use.

All non demi phase spells that are gdc would combo with each other to empower them. This would encourage diversity in spell use. Also each non demi spell could have it's own debuff or dot, whichever balances easier. Additional note all debuff/dot skills would do the same damage further encouraging spell use to get empowered procs. buff skill or beneficial skills would do less damage.

Ifrit: GCD AOE Damage - Adds debuff or dot if summoners favor is active. Combo -empowered damage

Garuda: GCD AOE Damage - Adds debuff or dot if summoners favor is active. Combo -empowered damage

- continued below

[Zaiyah]

If debuffs/buffs or dots are chosen for how this works it could create interesting interactions/situationals based on need. After the uses of "summoners favor" (still keep in mind aetherflow) are used Summon Bahamut Will be available.

Summon Bahamut: OGCD Duration - 10 sec Summons bahamut which allows the player to use 3 gcd spells only usable while bahamut is up. Extends negative debuffs/dots by 10 sec cast by the smn. Upon ending grants 3 uses of "summoners favor" This spell turns into Alexander upon use (lv 60) or Upon ending grants 1 uses of "summoners favor" This spell turns into Carbuncle upon use (lv 59 or lower).

Ramuh: GCD AOE Damage - Adds debuff or dot if summoners favor is active. Combo -empowered damage

Leviathan: OGCD Target Ally AOE Damage /AOE Heal (small) 1min CD

Pheonix: GCD AOE Target self AOE Damage / AOE Raise / AOE Heal (very small) 30 min CD (this would realistically only be usable once per instance)

-continued below

[Zaiyah]

Summon Alexander: OGCD Duration - 10 sec Summons alexander which allows the player to use 3 gcd spells only usable while alexander is up. Extends negative debuffs/dots by 10 sec cast by the smn. Upon ending grants 4 uses of "summoners favor" This spell turns into Triad upon use (lv 70) or Upon ending grants 1 use of "summoners favor" This spell turns into Carbuncle upon use (lv 69 or lower).

Titan: OGCD AOE Target Self AOE Damage / Damage Reduction buff or Shield

Shiva: AOE Damage - Adds debuff or dot if summoners favor is active. Combo -empowered damage

Summon Triad or Odin or OP Primal of your choice: OGCD Summons OP Primal which allows the player to use 4 gcd spells only usable while OP Primal is up. Extends negative debuffs/dots by 10 sec cast by the smn. Upon ending grants 4 uses of "summoners favor" This spell turns into Even more op primal upon use (lv 80) or Upon ending grants 1 use of "summoners favor" This spell turns into Carbuncle upon use (lv 79 or lower).

Favor of the Primals: OGDC Summon Carbuncle becomes Summon Bahamut @ lv 50, Summon Alexander @ lv 60, Summon OP Primal @lv 70 and 80.


Summon Even More OP Primal of your choice: GCD Summons OP Primal which allows the player to use 1 spell only usable while OP Primal is up. Extends negative debuffs/dots by 10 sec cast by the smn. Does even more damage based on number of debuffs/dots on enemy. Upon ending grants 1 use of "summoners favor" This spell turns into Carbuncle upon use.

The last demi stage would be updated to be like the rest when the level cap increases. The same buttons would be used for each demi phase to keep bloat to a minimum. With this smn would have the job of maintaining their debuffs through maintaining their rotation. Debuffs would theroetically be up 100% of the time so long as the smn doesn't die.

This kind of build would give smn a unique feel that screams smn in my opinion. It is simple in rotation but gives smn something to do at all times while giving that feeling that you are a smn. Animations for the non demi phases would have smaller versions of the actual primals appearing to execute their signature abilities.

There have been A LOT of steps to make smn and sch feel different but the rough edges are still there. Hopefully yoshi decides to overhaul smn I don't expect these ideas to be considered but I do want something to be done at least. I would love for a floating crystal to be the weapon as well....

Well that's all for my rant lol. Would like to know peoples opinions of this~

[HeulGDarian]

Here we go again

[Exodus-E]

Here we go again

I know, right?

Yet another person who wants to eliminate Egis (completely phasing them out in favor of Demis), all while ignoring the story/lore/artwork/etc. that was created and tied around them since 2013~2014.
Not to mention one that's oblivious to the fact that each Final Fantasy game handles its elements differently.

Look, we get it.
SMN may have some conceptual/mechanical problems as of this particular expansion.
But that doesn't mean that Egis are the main culprit, nor that they can't keep adjusting them at all (Patch 5.1 proved that).

Also, I think the worst part of those suggestions is that these would lock us out of any other "potential" new Egi/Trance/Demi/etc. such as Bismarck, Ravana, or even Shinryu.

[Zaiyah]

I know, right?

Yet another person who wants to eliminate Egis (completely phasing them out in favor of Demis), all while ignoring the story/lore/artwork/etc. that was created and tied around them since 2013~2014.
Not to mention one that's oblivious to the fact that each Final Fantasy game handles its elements differently.

Look, we get it.
SMN may have some conceptual/mechanical problems as of this particular expansion.
But that doesn't mean that Egis are the main culprit, nor that they can't keep adjusting them at all (Patch 5.1 proved that).

Also, I think the worst part of those suggestions is that these would lock us out of any other "potential" new Egi/Trance/Demi/etc. such as Bismarck, Ravana, or even Shinryu.

Actually no I like the pet idea and managing them. This was a suggestion keeping in mind that Yoshi's team hates the egi at this point. Evidenced by all but phasing them out into back ground pets that only serve the purpose to signify what "stance" you are in while providing a dot in the form of AA (single/aoe/shield). If they aren't going to make smn about the summons and add more egis or glamours or center the gameplay around them then just scrap them and make amazing animations for set skills instead. Yes there is lore but a retcon is not unheard of or would even be THAT much to do. My prefered style would be to scrap most spells cast by the smn and make them cast by the egi you have summoned but that isn't how yoshi wants it.

[Exodus-E]

This was a suggestion keeping in mind that Yoshi's team hates the egi at this point. Evidenced by all but phasing them out into back ground pets that only serve the purpose to signify what "stance" you are in while providing a dot in the form of AA (single/aoe/shield). If they aren't going to make smn about the summons and add more egis or glamours or center the gameplay around them then just scrap them and make amazing animations for set skills instead.

For the record, the latest mention of them acknowledging/working on them was back in May 14th 2020 in the 12th LL Revival, shown here (in the live chat):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQbr0xgafk0 (at 34:04)

Personally, I doubt that they actively hate them, it's just that they have a lot of other stuff to take care of (unfortunately).

Yes there is lore but a retcon is not unheard of or would even be THAT much to do. My prefered style would be to scrap most spells cast by the smn and make them cast by the egi you have summoned but that isn't how yoshi wants it.

Not on this magnitude, especially since it was pretty much solidified in outside sources (see: official artworks/renderings, encyclopedias, a "Tales from the Storm" entry, etc.).

It'd be like removing the faeries from SCH (and/or changing their roles).
It's far too late at this point.

EDIT:
On a related note, here's my (usual) message for the community team and/or the development team:

If you're reading this, PLEASE make an official statement on the (current) status of Egi glamours.
Even implementing a dedicated/exclusive UI window to manage them (akin to BLU's spell book) would go a long way.
Thank you for your time.

[Dyvid]

Actually no I like the pet idea and managing them. This was a suggestion keeping in mind that Yoshi's team hates the egi at this point. Evidenced by all but phasing them out into back ground pets that only serve the purpose to signify what "stance" you are in while providing a dot in the form of AA (single/aoe/shield). If they aren't going to make smn about the summons and add more egis or glamours or center the gameplay around them then just scrap them and make amazing animations for set skills instead. Yes there is lore but a retcon is not unheard of or would even be THAT much to do. My prefered style would be to scrap most spells cast by the smn and make them cast by the egi you have summoned but that isn't how yoshi wants it.

You evidence is suspect at best. To be clear, I suggested in 2014 to give Egi a "stance" based on how the game was designed (A pet designed for trash mobs and one for boss fights). Further more Egi damage is a lot better now than it was then. Egi control is better now than it was then. In fact, Summoner is more about summons now than it was then, anyone remember "Ruin Mage?" The biggest community issue that needs to be address is Egi cosmetic design.

[Rika007]

I know, right?

Yet another person who wants to eliminate Egis (completely phasing them out in favor of Demis), all while ignoring the story/lore/artwork/etc. that was created and tied around them since 2013~2014.
Not to mention one that's oblivious to the fact that each Final Fantasy game handles its elements differently.

There are ways to remove the Egi's from the jobs overall primary play style without completely destroying or retconning the jobs lore. An easy idea that's been tossed around by many people is to make the egi's into baby Demi's earlier on in the leveling process. Change their mechanics around so they behave more like Demi's with a 20 second timer and have enkindle work similar to Akh Morn and Revelation (or you could make them like the MCH Queen Automaton as a fire and forget type thing as they should be more basic). You get all your egi's at the same time as you level up and then as you go on further into the leveling process each egi get's replaced by a Demi primal trance (assuming Summoner continues to add Demi primals down the line, which seems like the route it's gonna go as the Demi's are the part of the job most are excited for).

This would not just solve the problem of how to fix the Egi's while also not outright removing them for lore reasons, but also fixes one of Summoner's other biggest problems, the leveling experience and how it feels like 4 different jobs entirely from levels 1-57, 58-69, 70-71, and 72-80. The job desperately needs a fix to it's lower level experience (several jobs do as well), and making it so players are getting used to the primary ability loop early on would help to fix that.

Other things would have to change of course. Ruin 4 will need to find another way to be proc'ed outside of Egi Assaults granting further ruin, on top of Summoner losing a LOT of it's mobility will have to be dealt with. However with the egi mechanics removed from the end game level environment that allows them to flesh out the Demi's more. Working on un-teathering Bahamut and Phoenix from the Summoner so they just stay still and do their thing would help with this, as would merging Dreadwyrm Trance to Bahamut's summoning like Phoenix so that it still has a lot more available free casts during the opener to juggle all it's OGCD's. The point is all this would be very easy to work around. They also will need to shorten the rotation between trances if they plan on adding a third Demi. As a 3 minute long loop just puts us back into the same death punishment territory that Summoner was in during Stormblood.

Look, we get it.
SMN may have some conceptual/mechanical problems as of this particular expansion.
But that doesn't mean that Egis are the main culprit, nor that they can't keep adjusting them at all (Patch 5.1 proved that).

I don't think it's a may at this point, and it isn't just this expansion. Even at it's peak popularity in Heavensward and Stormblood, people had issues with egi management. And sure while there have been plenty of complaints about other things like Demi ghosting and movement issues, dot mage not feeling like a summoner, boring aetherflow management have all popped up here and there over time, the one consistent thorn in the side of Summoner has been since day one managing the egi's. They have always been the number one complaint about summoners design, thats why they have changed so drastically each expansion. I get it, the egi's are cool and the carbuncles are cute. They can still hang around in some way or another, there is nothing stopping them from being a glamour of some kind that summoners can pull out on the side even with my idea of them becoming 'baby Demi's' early on.

And let's face it, it's not like SE isn't ready to make change because a job's lore is in the way. They ripped Bard's support kit to absolute shreds over the years all in the name and sake of Balance, not that I agree with that decision mind you, but I'm just saying that if the dev team begins to agree with the player base that Egi's are the primary problem, don't be surprised when they find a way to get rid of them. That lore protection will only last so far.

Also, I think the worst part of those suggestions is that these would lock us out of any other "potential" new Egi/Trance/Demi/etc. such as Bismarck, Ravana, or even Shinryu.

Not really. Any change to the Egi system or removal of it basically guarantee's a rework in how the job will function at it's core. They know the Demi's are the star of the show now and taking the time for that significant of a change gives a chance to rework the rotation to fit in new ways to bring in new trance's and Demi's down the line. It doesn't in anyway 'lock them out' from it.

[Exodus-E]

And let's face it, it's not like SE isn't ready to make change because a job's lore is in the way. They ripped Bard's support kit to absolute shreds over the years all in the name and sake of Balance, not that I agree with that decision mind you, but I'm just saying that if the dev team begins to agree with the player base that Egi's are the primary problem, don't be surprised when they find a way to get rid of them. That lore protection will only last so far.

And yet, said changes didn't conflict with its own established lore.
BRD is still a master archer that uses "magical music" to inspire/fortify itself and its allies.

Hell, it even kept the same songs it had since ARR (minus Foe's Requiem), just altered so they work in a different manner while still benefiting both, itself and the rest of the party.

So yeah, the lore protection "excuse" can still last so much.

Not really. Any change to the Egi system or removal of it basically guarantee's a rework in how the job will function at it's core. They know the Demi's are the star of the show now and taking the time for that significant of a change gives a chance to rework the rotation to fit in new ways to bring in new trance's and Demi's down the line. It doesn't in anyway 'lock them out' from it.

I meant "lock them out" from a cosmetic perspective, which the Egi glamour system was meant to fix (if they kept working on it, that is).

Fundamentally speaking, we're already set in terms of roles and functions for summons.

All we're missing is variety, even if it's just cosmetic.
Which is why I take issue with some of these "suggestions" that don't take into account every Primal released thus far (or will be released in the future).