Buffs to dragoon

[Shurrikhan]

Click on your Link, Click View Image Location : Both of them are the same image from the same LINK i used your direct image link instead of the Page hosted image Link because the forums was having issues. I honestly didn't crop your image.
Please View Source on your Link to the image and you'll discover the link i posted to be the direct image link.

Except they're clearly not the same image. It has most of the image seen from clicking on my link, but is then suspiciously missing the whole top bar included in each of my posts. Should I instead call it seemingly subjected to "the removal of unwanted outer areas from a photographic or illustrated image"?

You Argued for Max, your premise was that DRG out damaging MNK on MAX damage was the reason why DRG was 3rd place in all fights, which wasn't true as proven by the Data i posted.

1. That wasn't my premise.
2. DRG's power is listed in the parenthetical after every image.

You say that while noting that i never previously posted a suggestion and then post the first suggestion i posted in the thread, that's a contradiction don't you think?

I've Suggested Multiple Balance changes over the past entire Expansion Cycle Never have i suggested any raw potency changes to the job.

"Over the past expansion cycle" is not here; I clarified this because you seem to have thought that the weight of your unseen past arguments were somehow contributing to this thread. I then preceded to post every word of actual suggestions you've posted here, the limits of your actual contribution to this thread.

Have you been playing end game as DRG this expansion Cycle almost every fight has a long enough transition that a DRG has no choice but to lose their BotD even with perfect execution of wheeling or fang before hand until a 2 seconds.
Any Cutscene or transition that takes more then 58 seconds will force you to lose BotD and all eye stacks.

You honestly want to argue that "this expansion cycle almost every fight" prevents control of character for "more than 58 (consecutive) seconds"?

I don't think you are aware of the fact that right now, you store an extra eye on purpose delaying your Life Gauge in order to achieve 1 extra Nastrond under Lance Charge.

I am not aware of almost every fight denying me control of character for more than 58 consecutive seconds, but I am quite used to delaying LotD on my DRG character, yes.

With a Charge system since Geir and Nastrond share timers and would share timers with a charge system would result in the same Nastrod usage as 2 charges would be expended firing the Geirskogul to activate Life to Fire the Nastrod, Leaving you with 1 Charge, and 29 Seconds, Resulting a 5 second Penalty, Resulting in 24 seconds, and 3 Nastrods per Eye.

Geirskogul being a given a further charge would not necessitate that, with a charge system, it would share timers with Nastrond. Such would, after all, force Geirskogul to a 10-second recharge time or Nastrond to a 30-second recharge timer.

What is this "5 second penalty" you are referring to?

Do you mean "Eye" (progress step) or "Life of the Dragon" (the 30-second Geirskogul-upgrading phase activated by Gierskogul after generating the requisite number of "Eyes")?

Finally now you agree with the notion that this should be a DRG Related thread, Earlier it was being hijacked by "MNK CHANGES ONLY".

You stepped in poop, giving us 2 posts of diversion, and then insisted on rolling around in said poop to generate a further 2 pages of waste. Move on.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

It looks like there may be a lot of good that could come out of your charge idea, but it's very difficult to understand at present. Could you elaborate more clearly?

[Renkei]

Except they're clearly not the same image. It has most of the image seen from clicking on my link, but is then suspiciously missing the whole top bar included in each of my posts. Should I instead call it seemingly subjected to "the removal of unwanted outer areas from a photographic or illustrated image"?

1. That wasn't my premise.
2. DRG's power is listed in the parenthetical after every image.

"Over the past expansion cycle" is not here; I clarified this because you seem to have thought that the weight of your unseen past arguments were somehow contributing to this thread. I then preceded to post every word of actual suggestions you've posted here, the limits of your actual contribution to this thread.


You honestly want to argue that "this expansion cycle almost every fight" prevents control of character for "more than 58 (consecutive) seconds"?


I am not aware of almost every fight denying me control of character for more than 58 consecutive seconds, but I am quite used to delaying LotD on my DRG character, yes.

Geirskogul being a given a further charge would not necessitate that, with a charge system, it would share timers with Nastrond. Such would, after all, force Geirskogul to a 10-second recharge time or Nastrond to a 30-second recharge timer.

What is this "5 second penalty" you are referring to?

Do you mean "Eye" (progress step) or "Life of the Dragon" (the 30-second Geirskogul-upgrading phase activated by Gierskogul after generating the requisite number of "Eyes")?



You stepped in poop, giving us 2 posts of diversion, and then insisted on rolling around in said poop to generate a further 2 pages of waste. Move on.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

It looks like there may be a lot of good that could come out of your charge idea, but it's very difficult to understand at present. Could you elaborate more clearly?

They are the same exact image.

I Don't need to argue it because we both know that In Savage Content has unpreventable breaks in the Final Fight.

my Unseen past arguments? does making my arguments more seen somehow justify them to be more important? I am pretty sure most of them were seen whether they are popular opinion is something i don't care about, as popular opinion doesn't have to be factual as it's subjected to only being accepted by the majority regardless of it's factual significance.

Geirskogul wouldn't receive a further charge, and it already shares a timer with Nastrond, if you've done a 6 Nastrond Weave you'd be aware of this.
The Penalty you recieve from having Nastrod half off CD converts directly into Geirskoguls timer.

You are willing to use anything as a straw-man or a mote and bailey that's why you defended the MNK argument? You don't take your own behavior into account. what a double standard.

2 Pages of Waste? All you did was grab a bunch of suggestions that you claim were unseen suggested over the past 2 years and then take credit for them all on your own.

Guess you have something to wipe with after what you laid earlier.

I'll argue that lot's of fights have 58 second transitions where you cannot control your character because it's true. Play the game. E1S, E4S, E8S, Ruby Weapon, Hades, Warrior Light. All have these transitions, Not to mention both alliance raids have transitions like this too because of the long walk times in-between areas. That's 6 out 11 Fights, Making it so that most fights in this expansion factually having a transition like this.

lets Move pass all the for-mentioned Bull.

When you use Geirskogul it already shares a CD with Nastrod, You can see this if you mess up using it on purpose [or accident], effectively you can make it so Activating LIFE of the Dragon (2 Eyes > Geirskogul) Grants 1 CHARGE of Nastrond and behaves the same as other charge abilities, but only enters into charge state when Life of the dragon is activated.

The Effect would be described as this in the Tooltip.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Life of the Dragon TRAIT.

Allows for the strengthening of the gaze of the first brood upon using Mirage Dive while under the effect of Blood of the Dragon. When the gaze is its strongest (2 units), Geirskogul will grant you the Life of the Dragon status in place of Blood of the Dragon. While under the effect of Life of the Dragon, Geirskogul will change to Nastrond Resetting to 1 Charge. Life of the Dragon will revert to Blood of the Dragon when duration expires.


Nastrond 10 Seconds 3 Charge Max.


______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Example of Charges : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon = Charge +1 > Nastrond > Wait 10 seconds > Charge +1 > Nastrond > Wait 10 seconds > Charge +1. > Nastrond > Wait 9 seconds > Blood of the Dragon.

Effectively, entering Life of the Dragon will reset Nastrond Charge to 1 no matter what because Geirskogul by itself cannot accumulate charges. This effectively would allow you to miss an ENTIRE window of Nastronds, at the cost of 1 Nastrond, Without the same 3 second Grace Period the Current System Has.

Example of Current State : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon > Nastrond > Wait 10 seconds > Nastrond > wait 10 seconds > Nastrond > wait 9 seconds > Blood of the Dragon.

Example Of Advantages of Charge : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon = Charge +1 > Nastrond > wait 10 seconds = Charge +1> Wait 10 seconds = Charge +1 > Nastrond > Nastrond > wait 9 seconds > Blood of the Dragon > 1 second to Geirskogul.

Example Of Existing Shared Timer with Charge : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon = Charge +1 > Nastrond > wait 10 seconds = Charge +1> Wait 10 seconds = Charge +1 > Nastrond > wait 3 seconds > Nastrond > wait 6 seconds > Blood of the Dragon > 4 second to Geirskogul.


There would be no difference in potency besides being able to align burst windows with more flexibility.

The reason why Geirskogul Resets is because you wait 9 seconds, If you use Nastrod late or miss it somehow it resets at a higher duration depending on the cooldown percentage of Nastrond.

90% of 10 seconds is 1 second, 80% 2, 70% 3....ETC. This is actually a thing in game. Test it if you haven't noticed.

[Shurrikhan]

I Don't need to argue it because we both know that In Savage Content has unpreventable breaks in the Final Fight.

Your words were "almost every fight" in "this expansion Cycle". Two out of all does not make "almost every".

does making my arguments more seen somehow justify them to be more important?

It makes them part of the discussion. Admittedly, that would make it more, contextually, "important" than if... not part of the discussion.

I am pretty sure most of them were seen whether they are popular opinion is something i don't care about, as popular opinion doesn't have to be factual as it's subjected to only being accepted by the majority regardless of it's factual significance.

That sounds an awful lot like "I'm not crazy; the world is!" in this particular case.

Geirskogul wouldn't receive a further charge, and it already shares a timer with Nastrond, if you've done a 6 Nastrond Weave you'd be aware of this.
The Penalty you recieve from having Nastrod half off GCD converts directly into Geirskoguls timer.

Nastrond... isn't... a GCD skill... though?

Can any other DRG mains make sense of this part (above)?

You are willing to use anything as a straw-man or a mote and bailey that's why you defended the MNK argument? You don't take your own behavior into account. what a double standard.

I defended the argument that due research at the time of the events and at the time of my post showed to be factual. Yes, I tend to treat the factual and afactual differently, hence

2 Pages of Waste? All you did was grab a bunch of suggestions that you claim were unseen suggested over the past 2 years and then take credit for them all on your own.

I think you're fully aware I'm referring to your starting a piss-battle with the anyone who knows anything, historically, about Monks.

I never claimed those suggestions were unseen. They are all quite clearly from this thread. That is, after all, how normal discussion works. It doesn't make use of things one has variously said in other threads, unseen to those one is discussing the current topic with.

It was my attempt to try to bring some course back to the thread. Perhaps you've been saying ingenious things in your suggested charge system and I'm just too dumb to understand them. In spirit of that, might I suggest actually addressing the thread itself?

Edit: I see you've made a massive edit again. I'll read it and edit accordingly when I get a chance.

[Renkei]

I defended the argument that due research at the time of the events and at the time of my post showed to be factual. Yes, I tend to treat the factual and afactual differently, hence


I think you're fully aware I'm referring to your starting a piss-battle with the anyone who knows anything, historically, about Monks.

I never claimed those suggestions were unseen. They are all quite clearly from this thread. That is, after all, how normal discussion works. It doesn't make use of things one has variously said in other threads, unseen to those one is discussing the current topic with.

It was my attempt to try to bring some course back to the thread. Perhaps you've been saying ingenious things in your suggested charge system and I'm just too dumb to understand them. In spirit of that, might I suggest actually addressing the thread itself?

Edit: I see you've made a massive edit again. I'll read it and edit accordingly when I get a chance.

I mean OGCD 1 letter difference i think anyone that speaks English can understand that basic mess up , its 6 out of 11 fights.

Referring to the data that was so badly cherry-picked by you that you had to accuse me of doctoring out the 1 day Data, Which you still seem to believe was doctored, the Real Doctored image was the obvious image with MNK doing 999999 Damage, and DRG doing 231337 Damage, Yet you don't bring that into the discussion. I used a completely Different Up-loader to disprove your theory, and backed up the link you posted, only the final image i posted was doctored that's why i made it absolutely obvious, you stated DRG was only BEATEN BY SAM/BLM in every fight. Which was proven not true.

I Didn't even start the piss battle, Look through the posts Historically all i did was suggest and try to contribute to this thread only to defend myself against the onslaught of DRG OP MNK GIMP by no other then you. what a surprise! I don't see how you appeal to authority makes any sense because none ever do.


They are from this thread you used that point as a Mote and Bailey as mentioned earlier by me you attempt to be constructive to hide the fact that you only participate in the forums for ad hominem.
You were against those positions in earlier posts because you believed DRG was to over powered.
i am not going to point out every single node.




Lets analyze these statements.

That sounds an awful lot like "I'm not crazy; the world is!" in this particular case.

You say that with conviction like you speak for the world and for me, This is a talking point in Linguistical studies i suggest you look into it. It's the primary topic of Walter Lippmann's Public Opinion, Great piece of Literary work.
Text book Gas-lighting good-job!
If there's 10 people in a Forest, and only 2 people saw a Owl, but the other 8's opinion is that the 2 didn't see the owl, Does it make that Owl appearing Factual? popular opinion doesn't make facts.

does making my arguments more seen somehow justify them to be more important?
It makes them part of the discussion. Admittedly, that would make it more, contextually, "important" than if... not part of the discussion.

Obviously does that even need to be mentioned? but should i care whether or not you consider it seen or unseen? No.
It's important to note i said "my Unseen past arguments? does making my arguments more seen somehow justify them to be more important? I am pretty sure most of them were seen whether they are popular opinion is something i don't care about, as popular opinion doesn't have to be factual as it's subjected to only being accepted by the majority regardless of it's factual significance. "
Context is important.

I think you're fully aware I'm referring to your starting a piss-battle with the anyone who knows anything, historically, about Monks.

Because what i said was the truth? How is that a Piss-Battle? I Historically put out more accurate Monk Data in this Thread then you have! You accused me of doctoring the image you posted when i posted the direct-link instead, the only image i doctored was the one that was obviously doctored with the ridiculous damage numbers to prevent you from accusing me of doctoring your original image because I've seen you use that as a defense before.

your honestly Telling me this link https://prnt.sc/ul0l97 Posted by you, and your Link Directly Linked https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png Doctored? Nope.

Your Post 03:00 AM
https://prnt.sc/ul0l97
My Post 03:10 AM
https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png
Your Edit 03:27 AM.
https://prnt.sc/ul1235

It was my attempt to try to bring some course back to the thread. Perhaps you've been saying ingenious things in your suggested charge system and I'm just too dumb to understand them. In spirit of that, might I suggest actually addressing the thread itself?

Argumentum ad populum, Man you are full of the tricks aren't you? I knew you were full of it the moment i helped get your link working and then you accused me of cropping it.

[Shurrikhan]

@Renkai
(I apologize for taking up so much of the thread thus far; I should have thought to use hide blocks earlier.)

In full:

I mean OGCD 1 letter difference i think anyone that speaks English can understand that basic mess up , its 6 out of 11 fights.

Referring to the data that was so badly cherry-picked by you that you had to accuse me of doctoring out the 1 day Data, Which you still seem to believe was doctored, the Real Doctored image was the obvious image with MNK doing 999999 Damage, and DRG doing 231337 Damage, Yet you don't bring that into the discussion. I used a completely Different Up-loader to disprove your theory, and backed up the link you posted, only the final image i posted was doctored that's why i made it absolutely obvious, you stated DRG was only BEATEN BY SAM/BLM in every fight. Which was proven not true.

I Didn't even start the piss battle, Look through the posts Historically all i did was suggest and try to contribute to this thread only to defend myself against the onslaught of DRG OP MNK GIMP by no other then you. what a surprise! I don't see how you appeal to authority makes any sense because none ever do.


They are from this thread you used that point as a Mote and Bailey as mentioned earlier by me you attempt to be constructive to hide the fact that you only participate in the forums for ad hominem.
You were against those positions in earlier posts because you believed DRG was to over powered.
i am not going to point out every single node.




Lets analyze these statements.


You say that with conviction like you speak for the world and for me, This is a talking point in Linguistical studies i suggest you look into it. It's the primary topic of Walter Lippmann's Public Opinion, Great piece of Literary work.
Text book Gas-lighting good-job!
If there's 10 people in a Forest, and only 2 people saw a Owl, but the other 8's opinion is that the 2 didn't see the owl, Does it make that Owl appearing Factual? popular opinion doesn't make facts.



Obviously does that even need to be mentioned? but should i care whether or not you consider it seen or unseen? No.
It's important to note i said "my Unseen past arguments? does making my arguments more seen somehow justify them to be more important? I am pretty sure most of them were seen whether they are popular opinion is something i don't care about, as popular opinion doesn't have to be factual as it's subjected to only being accepted by the majority regardless of it's factual significance. "
Context is important.


Because what i said was the truth? How is that a Piss-Battle? I Historically put out more accurate Monk Data in this Thread then you have! You accused me of doctoring the image you posted when i posted the direct-link instead, the only image i doctored was the one that was obviously doctored with the ridiculous damage numbers to prevent you from accusing me of doctoring your original image because I've seen you use that as a defense before.

your honestly Telling me this link https://prnt.sc/ul0l97 Posted by you, and your Link Directly Linked https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png Doctored? Nope.

Your Post 03:00 AM
https://prnt.sc/ul0l97
My Post 03:10 AM
https://image.prntscr.com/image/ScZK...tmdKSi72xg.png
Your Edit 03:27 AM.
https://prnt.sc/ul1235


Argumentum ad populum, Man you are full of the tricks aren't you? I knew you were full of it the moment i helped get your link working and then you accused me of cropping it.

to prevent you from accusing me of doctoring your original image because I've seen you use that as a defense before.

You are again referring to... yourself?

Don't make me laugh you doctored that image here let me prove it!

I'm sorry if you're approaching this like I'm some end-of-story boss who doesn't even know you, but I've never accused anyone of doctoring an image. I see my link, which you accused me of doctoring, and your alleged copy of mine, and that the latter is smaller than the other. That's is all. I don't know you.

Argumentum ad populum

The context (what you've quoted of me immediately above):

It was my attempt to try to bring some course back to the thread. Perhaps you've been saying ingenious things in your suggested charge system and I'm just too dumb to understand them. In spirit of that, might I suggest actually addressing the thread itself?

This has nothing to do with argumentum ad populum; that is to argue based on what is popular. I am not arguing anything. I have explained my actions and have asked you to please write your suggestions out for anyone else in this thread, as per the purpose of this thread, since despite my best attempts to understand what it is you want, I am clearly failing.

[Renkei]

@Renkai
(I apologize for taking up so much of the thread thus far; I should have thought to use hide blocks earlier.)

In full:



You are again referring to... yourself?

I'm sorry if you're approaching this like I'm some end-of-story boss who doesn't even know you, but I've never accused anyone of doctoring an image. I see my link, which you accused me of doctoring, and your alleged copy of mine, and that the latter is smaller than the other. That's is all. I don't know you.


The context (what you've quoted of me immediately above):

This has nothing to do with argumentum ad populum; that is to argue based on what is popular. I am not arguing anything. I have explained my actions and have asked you to please write your suggestions out for anyone else in this thread, as per the purpose of this thread, since despite my best attempts to understand what it is you want, I am clearly failing.

I am constantly Referring to this.


Your Post 03:00 AM
https://prnt.sc/ul0l97
My Post 03:10 AM
https://postimg.cc/Wq22ygzL
Your Edit 03:27 AM.
https://prnt.sc/ul1235

It still counts as argumentum ad populum when you try appeal to the masses.
That's why we should push pass this Ad hominem, Which you don't need to know a person personally to employ. I would just rather not. So let's get to the bottom of suggestions instead of the later.

I Wrote My Suggestion In Detail In an earlier post, I'd like to clarify information about it but i don't have a clue what part of it you are confused about you'd have to ask me in detail about it in order for me to elaborate.


I've been reading through the DRG Balance thread on the Japanese Forums, It's nice to see people claiming support to others then a constant back and forth attacks at peoples personal character. So please ask me and I'll elaborate.

Here is the Window I mentioned Previously regarding the burst window for DRG. Notice the Purposely Used Early Geirskogul to delay Life? this is done on purpose to make up for the removal of 3 Eyes and spine-shatter-eye.
Burst Function works like this. Geir>Jump>Dive.


This would allow the Last Nastrond of 1st burst 6 Nastrond, and the first one of the 2nd 6 Nastrond 2 second flexibility. That's why it's not an issue just some timing flexibility.


Alternatively, Preventing Removal of Eyes on BoTD Loss will only put DRG up to the current standard of keeping your resourcing because we got long in battle cut-scenes. Which MNK Also suffers from. Like the not having 7 Chakra problem.

[Shurrikhan]

@Renkai's edited explanation in regards to adding a Charge to Geirskogul/Nastrond:
(Sorry I didn't edit earlier to save the trouble of further explanation! I had to be away from keyboard for a bit.

Again, I'm fully aware of the delay interactions. My only question was what you meant by the added Charge and what you wanted from it, which your previous post already made clear, I think.)

Example of Charges : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon = Charge +1 > Nastrond > Wait 10 seconds > Charge +1 > Nastrond > Wait 10 seconds > Charge +1. > Nastrond > Wait 9 seconds > Blood of the Dragon.

Effectively, entering Life of the Dragon will reset Nastrond Charge to 1 no matter what because Geirskogul by itself cannot accumulate charges. This effectively would allow you to miss an ENTIRE window of Nastronds, at the cost of 1 Nastrond, Without the same 3 second Grace Period the Current System Has.

Example of Current State : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon > Nastrond > Wait 10 seconds > Nastrond > wait 10 seconds > Nastrond > wait 9 seconds > Blood of the Dragon.

Example Of Advantages of Charge : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon = Charge +1 > Nastrond > wait 10 seconds = Charge +1> Wait 10 seconds = Charge +1 > Nastrond > Nastrond > wait 9 seconds > Blood of the Dragon > 1 second to Geirskogul.

Example Of Existing Shared Timer with Charge : 2 Eye > Geirskogul > Life of the Dragon = Charge +1 > Nastrond > wait 10 seconds = Charge +1> Wait 10 seconds = Charge +1 > Nastrond > wait 3 seconds > Nastrond > wait 6 seconds > Blood of the Dragon > 4 second to Geirskogul.

There would be no difference in potency besides being able to align burst windows with more flexibility.

The reason why Geirskogul Resets is because you wait 9 seconds, If you use Nastrod late or miss it somehow it resets at a higher duration depending on the cooldown percentage of Nastrond.

90% of 10 seconds is 1 second, 80% 2, 70% 3....ETC. This is actually a thing in game. Test it if you haven't noticed.

Wouldn't this be accomplished as easily by "Refresh Geirskogul upon exiting LotD", or "No longer cause Nastrond to inflict an ICD onto Geirskogul"?

In either case, now that understand what you mean by charges, and --hopefully-- what you want from them, by all means, it seems a great idea. You could practically pass it off as an almost purely QoL change.

This is called a single-direction (or "unidirectional") ICD. (This means an "internal cooldown", as opposed to the "('nominal', 'base', or 'ability') cooldown", i.e. one lower than the actual/ability/base CD that is inflicted by some larger system, shared ID, or other skill or mechanic which does not explicitly state that it'd trigger its CD.)

Geirskogul and Nastrond do not "share CDs" exactly, because they are of different lengths (and they therefore cannot share charges, as far as I'm aware), but they do share... let's call them... spell-slot IDs. That sharing is the reason you may notice certain CDs being on cooldown when you swap off another job on which you used some other CDs. Note also that in all other cases in which these are shared, they are shared in flat duration, never percentile. The most notorious example of this has been Hallowed Ground and Lustrate sharing a slot, thus placing Lustrate on the remainder of its 7-minute cooldown after swapping.

Vestigially, because Nastrond is an upgrade of Gierskogul, it inflicts its cooldown onto the latter. Or, at least that seems the most likely reason. The Geirskogul->Nastrond direction inflicts nothing, either because of how the inheritance is encoded or because activating Life of the Dragon instantly refreshes the slot. There are two possible reasons why : either (1) something about either of the two required that they be in the same slot, or (2) the system could not otherwise track the cooldown of a skill that has been (for the duration of LotD) replaced, which at the time would have made a 21-second LotD duration superior to a 30-second as you'd return to Geirskogul with it automatically refreshed (since its cooldown progress data wasn't retained). Who knows. The latter is no longer an issue, though I wouldn't put it past them to leave something vestigial as an oversight.

Here you'd basically just be correcting that oversight, which is great. I personally slightly enjoy the tight demands of a 6N weave, but I also enjoyed the high-SkS TK rotation, which, due to its needing to be timed to the quarter-second, was disgustingly niche. So I realize I'm not the majority opinion in this regard. [SIZE="1"(For a more DRG-ish context, I also loved the hell out of the 2.33 GCD dungeoning build back in HW for its extra Geirskoguls on one of my two DRGs, mostly for its tightness and seeming capacity for ingenuity.)[/SIZE]

This seems a good change on the whole. Perhaps you could polish up the wording to be more easily read and post it where it's not likely to be distracted from by what you've written to me specifically?

Edit: In regards to Monk, we already know it's being revamped and have little idea what to expect -- personally, I expect it will be gutted to solely what is "functional", rather than its actual issues being addressed sensibly, thus shafting the veterans who enjoyed most of what was fundamental to and intentional in the job's design -- so it's little worth worrying how DRG will pair up against it. Let's just deal with DRG's issues for now. As I've already said before, I'm a fan of removing BotD as a timer since it seems to only act as bloat and awkward "DRGs get screwed in fights X, Y, and Z" mechanic.

Removing the Nos->Geir ICD and BotD-as-a-timer would already do a fair bit to smooth out the job. Is there anything else you had in mind, though?

[Renkei]

@Renkai's edited explanation in regards to adding a Charge to Geirskogul/Nastrond:
(Sorry I didn't edit earlier to save the trouble of further explanation! I had to be away from keyboard for a bit.

Again, I'm fully aware of the delay interactions. My only question was what you meant by the added Charge and what you wanted from it, which your previous post already made clear, I think.)


Wouldn't this be accomplished as easily by "Refresh Geirskogul upon exiting LotD", or "No longer cause Nastrond to inflict an ICD onto Geirskogul"?

In either case, now that understand what you mean by charges, and --hopefully-- what you want from them, by all means, it seems a great idea. You could practically pass it off as an almost purely QoL change.

This is called a single-direction (or "unidirectional") ICD. (This means an "internal cooldown", as opposed to the "('nominal', 'base', or 'ability') cooldown", i.e. one lower than the actual/ability/base CD that is inflicted by some larger system, shared ID, or other skill or mechanic which does not explicitly state that it'd trigger its CD.)

Geirskogul and Nastrond do not "share CDs" exactly, because they are of different lengths (and they therefore cannot share charges, as far as I'm aware), but they do share... let's call them... spell-slot IDs. That sharing is the reason you may notice certain CDs being on cooldown when you swap off another job on which you used some other CDs. Note also that in all other cases in which these are shared, they are shared in flat duration, never percentile. The most notorious example of this has been Hallowed Ground and Lustrate sharing a slot, thus placing Lustrate on the remainder of its 7-minute cooldown after swapping.

Vestigially, because Nastrond is an upgrade of Gierskogul, it inflicts its cooldown onto the latter. Or, at least that seems the most likely reason. The Geirskogul->Nastrond direction inflicts nothing, either because of how the inheritance is encoded or because activating Life of the Dragon instantly refreshes the slot. There are two possible reasons why : either (1) something about either of the two required that they be in the same slot, or (2) the system could not otherwise track the cooldown of a skill that has been (for the duration of LotD) replaced, which at the time would have made a 21-second LotD duration superior to a 30-second as you'd return to Geirskogul with it automatically refreshed (since its cooldown progress data wasn't retained). Who knows. The latter is no longer an issue, though I wouldn't put it past them to leave something vestigial as an oversight.

Here you'd basically just be correcting that oversight, which is great. I personally slightly enjoy the tight demands of a 6N weave, but I also enjoyed the high-SkS TK rotation, which, due to its needing to be timed to the quarter-second, was disgustingly niche. So I realize I'm not the majority opinion in this regard. [SIZE="1"(For a more DRG-ish context, I also loved the hell out of the 2.33 GCD dungeoning build back in HW for its extra Geirskoguls on one of my two DRGs, mostly for its tightness and seeming capacity for ingenuity.)[/SIZE]

This seems a good change on the whole. Perhaps you could polish up the wording to be more easily read and post it where it's not likely to be distracted from by what you've written to me specifically?

Edit: In regards to Monk, we already know it's being revamped and have little idea what to expect -- personally, I expect it will be gutted to solely what is "functional", rather than its actual issues being addressed sensibly, thus shafting the veterans who enjoyed most of what was fundamental to and intentional in the job's design -- so it's little worth worrying how DRG will pair up against it. Let's just deal with DRG's issues for now. As I've already said before, I'm a fan of removing BotD as a timer since it seems to only act as bloat and awkward "DRGs get screwed in fights X, Y, and Z" mechanic.

Removing the Nos->Geir ICD and BotD-as-a-timer would already do a fair bit to smooth out the job. Is there anything else you had in mind, though?

Yeah Sorta. they still share the same Slot, Simply Changing Nastrond to a Charge ability sharing that slot wouldn't make the charge timer triggered until you entered LoTD. as Geirskogul exiting "ICD" is Based on Nastrods last used "ICD".It could Still Inflict ICD onto Geirskogul though but it couldn't give it multiple charges because Geirskogul can only have a Max of 1 uses as it's not a charge ability. But if time was remaining on the last charge of Nastrond before conversion it would still apply to the shared ICD based on the remaining time on the final used charge and place it on Geirskogul. For Charge Values higher then the Value of Geirskogul uses such as 2 or 3 it would discard it when applying it to Geirskogul Never exceeding a value of 1.


but it will also require "Refresh Nastrond Upon Entering LotD" Which in Effect Only Gives Nastrond a single Charge stack and starts the charging timer 10 seconds per stack up to 2 Stacks since you start with 1 would equal the same 6N weave.
Assuming that the Value of a charged ability increases based on uses.


It is targeted at correcting that Over-sight Yes. it has the potential to add flexibility to gearing the job as well as flexibility of bursting in different compositions.

It could pass as a QoL Change, and it would also add a flexible timing window needed to add new mechanics in the future. such as a new state or ability requiring 2 Eyes while In Life of the Dragon.
Without effecting damage output through potency changes.

2.32-33 depending on your ping is still a thing and is the only way to get max value out of Life Surge. unfortunately it doesn't get along at all with the rest of DRG anymore as it doesn't help generate resources like in heavensward.


Reply to Edit : I am actually a bit afraid of what they could be changing, I hope it doesn't get gutted though because Monks have suffered enough with dealing with the redundancy in design that and the chunkiness that should have been smoothed out to begin with.

The Least they can do is let you keep Eye Stacks regardless if BoTD falls off, Kinda like Enochain generates Polyglot on BLM but keeps them even if it falls off. This also applies above.
It is clunky bloat, it made more sense when it had a function in heavensward. Which would kinda still work with the modern system. but since Geirskogul no longer costs time it makes no sense.


The only other things I've had in mind are future Expansion Abilities, I Would like an ability to exist to expend the remaining time to force end LoTD. (Lancet) And i would like to see An Introduction of a separate second eye stack for Star-diver. As well as a state requiring lining up both eyes at full unlock to enter Soul of the Dragon with the successful execution of Lancet. But i cannot come up with anything besides adding a more powerful Star-diver like jump,Free Wheeling/Fang Use, or even another LASER when entering that state. This Soul of the Dragon state would end up landing outside of the 6n burst at 2 eyes, and within the second 6n window burst if needing 4 stacks.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah Sorta. they still share the same Slot, Simply Changing Nastrond to a Charge ability sharing that slot wouldn't make the charge timer triggered until you entered LoTD. as Geirskogul exiting "ICD" is Based on Nastrods last used "ICD".It could Still Inflict ICD onto Geirskogul though but it couldn't give it multiple charges because Geirskogul can only have a Max of 1 uses as it's not a charge ability. But if time was remaining on the last charge of Nastrond before conversion it would still apply to the shared ICD based on the remaining time on the final used charge and place it on Geirskogul. For Charge Values higher then the Value of Geirskogul uses such as 2 or 3 it would discard it when applying it to Geirskogul Never exceeding a value of 1.

but it will also require "Refresh Nastrond Upon Entering LotD" Which in Effect Only Gives Nastrond a single Charge stack and starts the charging timer 10 seconds per stack up to 2 Stacks since you start with 1 would equal the same 6N weave.
Assuming that the Value of a charged ability increases based on uses.

Ultimately, though we just want two things, right?

1. To be able to delay/bank Nastrond casts, and
2. To be able to squish the delay between the 3rd Nastrond (LotD#1) and the following Geirskogul (opening LotD#2).

That seems most easily done by just breaking the link between the two and adding an aura to LotD whereby Nastrond's charge capacity is increased to 2. (This would appear, for all intents and purposes, as Nastrond simply having two charges, but uniquely starting with just the one, unlike all other multi-charge skills.)

If we want to go further than that, we might as well address the Eyes mechanic itself --- namely that, while execution can be banked, you can't get LotD lengths other than 30 seconds, making it harder to time specifically to the more awkward of fights.

2.32-33 depending on your ping is still a thing and is the only way to get max value out of Life Surge. unfortunately it doesn't get along at all with the rest of DRG anymore as it doesn't help generate resources like in heavensward.

As much as I hate slow jobs, I hate desync even more, depending on how badly it screws me over. Though, it's that last bit that hurts my soul in this case. I don't want to go back to how downtime-punishing HW was, but if that could be separated from the idea of attack speed affecting resource generation, I'd take that revised version in a heartbeat (so long as the higher-SkS version truly were competitive)...

[Renkei]

Ultimately, though we just want two things, right?

1. To be able to delay/bank Nastrond casts, and
2. To be able to squish the delay between the 3rd Nastrond (LotD#1) and the following Geirskogul (opening LotD#2).

That seems most easily done by just breaking the link between the two and adding an aura to LotD whereby Nastrond's charge capacity is increased to 2. (This would appear, for all intents and purposes, as Nastrond simply having two charges, but uniquely starting with just the one, unlike all other multi-charge skills.)

If we want to go further than that, we might as well address the Eyes mechanic itself --- namely that, while execution can be banked, you can't get LotD lengths other than 30 seconds, making it harder to time specifically to the more awkward of fights.



As much as I hate slow jobs, I hate desync even more, depending on how badly it screws me over. Though, it's that last bit that hurts my soul in this case. I don't want to go back to how downtime-punishing HW was, but if that could be separated from the idea of attack speed affecting resource generation, I'd take that revised version in a heartbeat (so long as the higher-SkS version truly were competitive)...

1. Yeah that's exactly it, Just the ability to delay and bank/store Nastrond casts.
2. Yeah it's strange that Nastrond Is NOT Auto-casted when activating Lotd with Geirskogul it would save time and prevent the Desync that Jump and Geirskogul suffer from towards the end of fights. You can really feel this in the burst window as you have to purposely delay it to throw out Mirage Dive to prevent clipping. Even though you can use any other dive with it fine after the LoTD transition.

What's interesting is it can be implemented since Enochain has a similar effect with generation of Poly stacks but it's considered charges but stored as an UI element. It'd still work with ability charge though as it's treated as such.

3. Eye's shouldn't be loss when BoTD is loss and/or BoTD should be Traited.


another future solution would be an ability that can force you out of LoTD.The issue with this is even with Star-diver being 30 seconds it'll cause an issue where you'd lose a use completely. Kind of like how you have to purposely stall LoTD during 6N so you can execute 2 Star-divers.
Star-diver should either be the ability to you use to END LoTD as it's cool-down length exceeds the duration of LoTD It would have to be adjusted to 20 seconds. This would dramatically decrease the time you are forced holding Mirage Dives. There's always that timing where you have 2 eyes in LoTD. and you cannot use Geirskogul to enter it even after you expended all 3 lasers.

4. A Solution for the Ranged Attack problem with Dragoon could be just to increase the RANGE (Length not width.) of the Linear AOE Combat, The ultimate problem with it though is it not properly generating disembowel value.
This could be an easy fix for the range attack solution as they are preexisting.

I'd like to be faster too but Desync is a really real problem for OGCD/CD Heavy Jobs which could be fixed by treating all abilities as Weaponskills, but it also has the potential to break the game because the value of faster burst windows eventually eats the value of higher crit etc, but critical has been defacto best for a long time so it's not anything to wild. It's a design over-sight that i hope will get addressed.

I remember those times it made me wonder why the resource generation wasn't stored into a gauge to begin with (why they didn't make TP gained from attacking instead of losing it to spend on more powerful abilities is beyond me). Expending Buff Timer of BoTD for Geirskogul's was a great idea though. but there has to be a better solution to that, with Dragoon's Linearity it caused weird interactions. especially taking into account Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize delaying your only 2 abilities to generate said gauge, a system like that would probably work out better now as long as the TIMING cap was increased and the resource generation was decreased due to the nature of tighter generation we now with the back to back WT/FC.
Effectively the design ended up losing content which it filled with WT/FC. Not to mention Losing Power Surge (one of the coolest looking abilities) and gaining dragon-sight, and the recent Gutting of Blood for Blood which leads me to another idea.

5. Dragon-Sight Removal or Adjustment, Current system OGCD Design of Dragoon Accounts for the existence of HT in it's rotation, Forcing a ally target ability to be weaved with a normal ability: With the recent adjustments to Battle-Litany, and removal of Heavy Thrust and Changing of Blood for Blood to Lance Charge.
Dragon-Sight should be removed and it's bonuses should be consumed by Existing Abilities here is some data I've Collected. Dragon Sight DPS =1,538.1 , Lance Charge DPS=2,021.3, Life Surge DPS = 911.0 ,Battle Litany =1,062.9 With this math you could Effectively Move 5% damage over to Lance charge (Lance Charge 20%) and Distribute the Rest into Litany (Litany 15%). Increasing Lance Charge DPS TO : 2,526.25‬, and Battle Litany to 15% results in 1,593‬, Totally 4,119.25‬ RDPS, Versus 4,622.3‬ of the current system, Additionally, The remaining output would probably be eaten up by the Increase in DPS in the 3min 2,774.0dps window both litany and Lance Charge Line up Linearly which buffs. Which equals Exactly 4,771‬ DPS. Not Exactly Game Breaking or anything for the huge QoL. This Change would result in an estimated 148.7‬ RDPS Gain and a damage loss in low man content

1. the ability to delay and bank/store Nastrond casts through Adding charge feature to Nastrond.
2. Nastrond Auto-casted when activating Life of the Dragon with Geirskogul.
3."Eye's" shouldn't be loss when blood of the dragon is loss and/or blood of the dragon should be Traited.
4. A Solution for the Ranged Attack problem with Dragoon could be just to increase the RANGE (Length not width.) of the Linear AOE Combat(Doom Spike > Sonic Thrust > Coerthan Torment) , The ultimate problem with it though is it not generating disembowel value.
This could be an easy fix for the range attack solution as they are preexisting. It also fixes the extending issue of Dragon Gauge.
5. Dragon-Sight Removal or Adjustment, Current system OGCD Design of Dragoon Accounts for the existence of HT in it's rotation, Forcing a ally target ability to be weaved with a normal ability: With the recent adjustments to Battle-Litany, and removal of Heavy Thrust and Changing of Blood for Blood to Lance Charge.
Dragon-Sight should be removed and it's bonuses should be consumed by Existing Abilities here is some data I've Collected. Dragon Sight DPS =1,538.1 , Lance Charge DPS=2,021.3, Life Surge DPS = 911.0 ,Battle Litany =1,062.9 With this math you could Effectively Move 5% damage over to Lance charge (Lance Charge 20%) and Distribute the Rest into Litany (Litany 15%). Increasing Lance Charge DPS TO : 2,526.25‬, and Battle Litany to 15% results in 1,593‬, Totally 4,119.25‬ RDPS, Versus 4,622.3‬ of the current system, Additionally, The remaining output would probably be eaten up by the Increase in DPS in the 3min 2,774.0dps window both litany and Lance Charge Line up Linearly which buffs. Which equals Exactly 4,771‬ DPS. Not Exactly Game Breaking or anything for the huge QoL. This Change would result in an estimated 148.7‬ RDPS Gain and a damage loss in low man content